10 year old daughter, need advice

[talesien]

What is the name of your state? Ohio

First, I want to thank all of you in advance. I have spent the past few hours reading threads here hoping to find an answer to my situation without bombarding all if you with yet another request. In any event, here is my situation. I'll try to make it as brief as possible, and only include leaglly relevant info.

My daughter is ten years old. Her mother and I split up when she was 7 months old. Our divorce was final when she was just over a year old. At that time, our custody agreement was set up with her as the custodial parent, with my visitation as follows: State minimums PLUS an additional 2 days and an overnight every week. Until my daughter started school this was set up as follows: Daughter was with me every other weekend (Fri-Sun evening), every Wednesday from 5:00pm until 8:30pm, and then we kind of rotated the other two days and additional overnight to fit best with everyone's schedule. Usually it was Th-Fr. I also had my daughter for 6 weeks each summer and we rotated holidays.

Fast forward to Kindergaten. My wife and I moved 30 miles roughly 2 months before my Daughter started school in order to be in the same town as my ex-wife. We figured this would be what was best for my daughter, and had the means to do so. At this point we re-arranged the way that our schedules worked. Based on our custody agreement, I had my daughter slightly more than half of the time (even though I am not the custodial parent). After some discussion, my Ex and I decided that we would go to a "week on/week off" arrangement. Since Kindergarten (daughter is now in 5th grade), she has been on a Sun-Sun schedule. The ex and I live less than 2 miles apart. I pay CS, and this arangement has worked pretty well. However, this arangement has never been updated with the courts. I tried to get thsi done and the ex kept putting me off about it. Then, the issue kind of faded into the background, as it has been nearly 6 years now, with no issues.

Now, the REASON for all of that background.

Over the past couple of years my Ex has increasingly begun to disregard some of the basics of our custody agreement. She continuously talks badly about me in front of my daughter (I DO NOT do this about my ex at all). She has told my daughter and me that my daughter is to withold all information from me regarding what happens at their house. My Ex's husband has begun to threaten me to my daughter, stating that he is going to "Drag him out of his house and kick is ass". My Ex also consistently uses guilt and manipulation tactics to get my daughter to do whatever she wants her to. This has begun to seriously effect my daughter's self esteem and stress levels, to the point where recently she climbed up into my lap one evening, laid her head on my chest, and just cried for about 45 minutes. As a father, this breaks my heart. She shouldn't have to be put into this situation.

So, all of that leading to my actual questions:

1. If I confront my ex forcefully (i.e., "This behavior needs to stop, or else I will be foreced to take you back to court to re-asses our custody agreement") will she have the right to rescind our standing (5+ years of precedent) scheduling arrangement?

2. If I do choose (or am forced) to proceed legally, what can I expect? Do I stand a chance of winning?

3. Worst case scenario, do I have any grounds at all to request an emergency assignment of custody?

The reality is that my Ex is not a bad person. She is a misguided and selfish one, but she does love our daughter in her way. Ideally, I want them to have a great relationship, and for all of us to get along - However, I will not allow my daughter to be placed in a situation where her mother makes her feel bad for loving me.

Thanks in advance for your advice. I really appreciate it.

Talesien

 

[onebreath]

Outside of getting legal advice here, I would seriously look into child/play therapy for your daughter ASAP. Of course it will take her time to build up trust there, but sometimes good things happen with good counselors....perhaps after time this third neutral party can also have discussions with the ex about how stressful behaviors are affecting the daughter.

I suspect many therapists would agree that stepdad threatening to kick your butt is some kind of domestic violence...but in terms of the courts doing anything about it, thats would I would put under the heading of a crapshoot in court. Personally I do not see grounds to ask for emergency custody...unfortunately parential alienation is so common, judges and attorneys hear it all the time. However, this is not legal advice for you, just why I know. But it will help to get a counselor in on your daughters side.

I hesitate to offer personal advice around power struggles between parents....what works for one may not work for another. One idea, write a certified mail letter (or have your attorney do it) stating in bold print daughter is saying she is being threatened if she shares information between households, and that you, her father, will be physically harmed. I would say specifically that threat is a form of domestic violence and is unlawful and this is a warning that it needs to stop here. One page, total business like,no feelings.

Insofar as court in general, I know many will probably say you don't have grounds for using the past 5 years visitation schedule as the precedent, UNLESS you have proof, or unless mom will willingly admit in mediation/court the truth. BUT, I think most judges are not going to ignore 5 years of precedence....so you need to work on gathering your evidence in all ways, school pickups, doctor viists on your days, any events you can proove on your days.

Request that be the formal order.

Good luck!

 

[CourtClerk]

We here happen to know a GREAT Ohio Family Law Attorney...

Please hold. She'll post eventually. I'll send a link to your thread.

BTW.... your ex is an a**, but what goes on in her house doesn't need to be told to you or publicized in the local paper either. However, your child has no business being put in the middle.

 

[talesien]

Thanks folks for the responses.

BTW.... your ex is an a**, but what goes on in her house doesn't need to be told to you or publicized in the local paper either. However, your child has no business being put in the middle.

I agree.....on both counts

My point to her and my daughter is that we ALL need to have open lines of communication. My daughter is a typical 10 year old. She will try to manipulate situations if she sees a benefit. I can't tell you the number of times she has started to complain about her mother doing or saying something or other, and my response is "Well, it sounds like you need to talk to you Mom then!" On the flip side, she doesn't ever need to feel like she isn't allowed to talk to either of us. If there is a real issue or concern, she shouldn't be afraid of getting in trouble if she needs to talk about it. And as far as I'm concerned about it, that's a two way street. We have nothing to hide in our house. I'm not perfect, but I do everything in my power to be a loving, involved father, and my wife (the step-mom, who has been around for 9 years) does the same. We have always made the separation between legal and practical a real one. My wife is a great mother figure, but when it comes to the leagality and relationship between my daughter, Ex, and I, she stays out of it.

Again, thanks everyone. I'm looking forward to hearing from the resident Ohio Family Law attorney.

This site is a great resource for those of us who end up in these situations. Is there anyplace that I can donate to it's continued existence?

Talesien

 

[LdiJ]

What is the name of your state? Ohio

So, all of that leading to my actual questions:

1. If I confront my ex forcefully (i.e., "This behavior needs to stop, or else I will be foreced to take you back to court to re-asses our custody agreement") will she have the right to rescind our standing (5+ years of precedent) scheduling arrangement?

Yes, at least temporarily.

2. If I do choose (or am forced) to proceed legally, what can I expect? Do I stand a chance of winning?

Win what? Primary custody? I don't think that you have anywhere near enough for that.

3. Worst case scenario, do I have any grounds at all to request an emergency assignment of custody?

No, you have absolutely nothing that would be considered the kind of reason for a judge to make an emergency custody change.

The reality is that my Ex is not a bad person. She is a misguided and selfish one, but she does love our daughter in her way. Ideally, I want them to have a great relationship, and for all of us to get along - However, I will not allow my daughter to be placed in a situation where her mother makes her feel bad for loving me.

Thanks in advance for your advice. I really appreciate it.

You know, I really think that its possible that your daughter is playing you a little bit. The only reason why I say that, is because a parent who would seriously badmouth the other parent, usually would not be a parent who would allow extra parenting time to that parent. They would usually not be a parent who would voluntarily go to a week on/week off schedule without being dragged through the courts, kicking and screaming.

The advice that you got from another poster, to get your daughter into some counseling, is a good one. If there really are problems at mom's the counseling will help your daughter deal with that, and if your daughter is playing you a bit, the counseling will help with that too.

 

[Ohiogal]

What is the name of your state? Ohio

So, all of that leading to my actual questions:

1. If I confront my ex forcefully (i.e., "This behavior needs to stop, or else I will be foreced to take you back to court to re-asses our custody agreement") will she have the right to rescind our standing (5+ years of precedent) scheduling arrangement?

She can attempt to but a judge will NOT be happy for her rescinding the agreement. In your original custody agreement did you have JOINT physical and/or legal custody with the modified standard visitation time schedule?

2. If I do choose (or am forced) to proceed legally, what can I expect? Do I stand a chance of winning?

You can expect to be sent to mediation at the initial hearing so you might as well ask or attempt mediation first. If it goes to court, you can expect a GAL to be appointed. You can expect to have the schedule you have now put into stone with joint legal custody -- a true joint legal/physical custody -- provided the GAL finds no major problems with either you or the ex (her husband COULD count as a major problem because she should be putting a leash on him). You can also expect your ex to have a severe dressing down for allowing her husband to threaten you to the child. You could POSSIBLY expect -- depending on the court -- for ex and you to attend counseling with the child.

3. Worst case scenario, do I have any grounds at all to request an emergency assignment of custody?

Nope. This has been going on HOW LONG? Five years? You have grounds possibly to file a complaint against ex's husband if you feel threatened. You have grounds to put your child into counseling (or get a court order for such if you don't have joint legal and your ex refuses). If your court order states that she cannot talk badly about you and you have proof (other than your daughter's words) then you can possibly file contempt against her. But don't look at her to receive more than a sharply worded rebuke from the courts.

The reality is that my Ex is not a bad person. She is a misguided and selfish one, but she does love our daughter in her way. Ideally, I want them to have a great relationship, and for all of us to get along - However, I will not allow my daughter to be placed in a situation where her mother makes her feel bad for loving me.

Your ex needs to grow up. But you can't legislate that. What you need to do is make sure your daughter understands that she can love both you and your ex. You need to be the bigger person and NOT respond in kind.

 

[Ohiogal]

Thanks folks for the responses.



I agree.....on both counts

Agree but get over it. SERIOUSLY. If you are thinking your ex is an ass and your daughter picks up on it, that is as bad as TELLING your daughter your ex is an ass. And your daughter is smart about things like this -- 99% of children are.

My point to her and my daughter is that we ALL need to have open lines of communication.

Yes and no. You need to have open lines of communication regarding YOUR DAUGHTER.

My daughter is a typical 10 year old. She will try to manipulate situations if she sees a benefit.

If you are getting your information FROM YOUR daughter -- about the threats and such -- and cannot independently substantiate it, how do you know your daughter is not manipulating you? She hears stepdaddy say something like "Kick his butt" and believes it refers to you when in actually he is talking about a boxing match and she decides to instigate because it gets HER attention from YOU? Understand, before you scream and holler, that it can be spun that way by an attorney. So determine how true the situations are. Also a better way of handling this is NOT to attack mom -- Hey you better quit doing this or I am going to go back to court. OH okay. Make mom a child and you an adult.

Try this: Junior has raised some concerns with me. She has conveyed to me that she feels guilty for loving me based on things she has heard from you however inadvertently. She seems to believe that you have stated negative things about me and she says if she loves me that will hurt you. Can we talk about this please because quite frankly it is tearing her apart.

Same conversation WITHOUT exerting a power struggle.

If she gets irate or admits that she does badmouth you and won't stop, then go to mediation on that issue. As well as getting custody in stone.

That puts the focus on the child's well being and not on you trying to control mom's actions.

I can't tell you the number of times she has started to complain about her mother doing or saying something or other, and my response is "Well, it sounds like you need to talk to you Mom then!"

Quite frankly she is ten. She may just want to vent. So instead of just saying she needs to talk to mom, why don't you work on helping her approach mom. "Honey, I understand that you are upset. Is there a reason you can't tlak to your mom about this because I cannot do anything to change it?" Once you find out the reason, you help her brainstorm for solutions so that she can talk to mom. Instead of just sending her to mom.

On the flip side, she doesn't ever need to feel like she isn't allowed to talk to either of us. If there is a real issue or concern, she shouldn't be afraid of getting in trouble if she needs to talk about it.

How do you know she will though?

And as far as I'm concerned about it, that's a two way street. We have nothing to hide in our house. I'm not perfect, but I do everything in my power to be a loving, involved father, and my wife (the step-mom, who has been around for 9 years) does the same. We have always made the separation between legal and practical a real one. My wife is a great mother figure, but when it comes to the leagality and relationship between my daughter, Ex, and I, she stays out of it.

Good for your wife. She should stay out of it. How do you know daughter is prohibited from telling you? And by the way have you had the discussion of good secrets and bad secrets with her yet?

 

[talesien]

OhioGal,

She can attempt to but a judge will NOT be happy for her rescinding the agreement. In your original custody agreement did you have JOINT physical and/or legal custody with the modified standard visitation time schedule?

In the original (and only) custody agreement, I do NOT have joint physical and/or legal custody. She is the custodial parent. However, our agreement is LOADED with what I now understand are non-standard clauses (i.e., even though she is custodial, she must discuss any and all decisions regarding our daughter's care with me, as well as pretty much anything; can't move out of the county without my consent or a Judge's approval, etc.).

You can expect to be sent to mediation at the initial hearing so you might as well ask or attempt mediation first. If it goes to court, you can expect a GAL to be appointed. You can expect to have the schedule you have now put into stone with joint legal custody -- a true joint legal/physical custody -- provided the GAL finds no major problems with either you or the ex (her husband COULD count as a major problem because she should be putting a leash on him). You can also expect your ex to have a severe dressing down for allowing her husband to threaten you to the child. You could POSSIBLY expect -- depending on the court -- for ex and you to attend counseling with the child.

I would be ecstatic with ALL of these things. I have no issue with counseling at all. As a matter of fact, I've tried several times over the past few years (I'd say I've brought it up 3 or 4 times/year) to get the Ex to agree to placing our daughter into counseling. She refuses. She doesn't want her to go, because on some level she knows that it would force her to face the reality of the situation.

Nope. This has been going on HOW LONG? Five years? You have grounds possibly to file a complaint against ex's husband if you feel threatened. You have grounds to put your child into counseling (or get a court order for such if you don't have joint legal and your ex refuses). If your court order states that she cannot talk badly about you and you have proof (other than your daughter's words) then you can possibly file contempt against her. But don't look at her to receive more than a sharply worded rebuke from the courts.

It hasn't been going on to the extent that it is now for 5 years. It has become a downward spiral over the past two years. (I just removed an entire paragraph because at the end of the day, it isn't legally relavent and that's what this site is about - legal relevance) Suffice to say, the only proof that I have is my daughter's conversations with me and my ex's admissions to me, neither of which is anything more than heresay.

That being said, what are the laws regarding taped conversations in Ohio? Is Ohio a one party state?

Your ex needs to grow up. But you can't legislate that. What you need to do is make sure your daughter understands that she can love both you and your ex. You need to be the bigger person and NOT respond in kind.

I do understand this. I try my very best to be the bigger person. I'm not perfect, and over the past nearly 10 years, I'm sure that there have been times where I have slipped and said something that would be charitably considered "out of line". That being said, I could count those times on one hand. I'm not a vindictive type, and I'm not an angry type. That is part of why my ex gets so frustrated with me. She communicates through fighting. I'm not that type of person.

Agree but get over it. SERIOUSLY. If you are thinking your ex is an ass and your daughter picks up on it, that is as bad as TELLING your daughter your ex is an ass. And your daughter is smart about things like this -- 99% of children are.

Honest question here - how do I do that? I DO think my ex is an ass. Because she IS. I don't SAY it, and I do everything in my power to not convey it to my daughter. But how do I make myself believe that the ex ISN'T what she IS?

Yes and no. You need to have open lines of communication regarding YOUR DAUGHTER.

This is what I meant. I should have been more clear. I dont' care what happens at their house in general. I only care about things that have a detrimental effect on my daughter.

If you are getting your information FROM YOUR daughter -- about the threats and such -- and cannot independently substantiate it, how do you know your daughter is not manipulating you? She hears stepdaddy say something like "Kick his butt" and believes it refers to you when in actually he is talking about a boxing match and she decides to instigate because it gets HER attention from YOU? Understand, before you scream and holler, that it can be spun that way by an attorney. So determine how true the situations are. Also a better way of handling this is NOT to attack mom -- Hey you better quit doing this or I am going to go back to court. OH okay. Make mom a child and you an adult.

Try this: Junior has raised some concerns with me. She has conveyed to me that she feels guilty for loving me based on things she has heard from you however inadvertently. She seems to believe that you have stated negative things about me and she says if she loves me that will hurt you. Can we talk about this please because quite frankly it is tearing her apart.

Same conversation WITHOUT exerting a power struggle.

If she gets irate or admits that she does badmouth you and won't stop, then go to mediation on that issue. As well as getting custody in stone.

That puts the focus on the child's well being and not on you trying to control mom's actions.

There is alot to tackle here Info from my daughter is the majority of what I have, plus addmissions from my ex wife. Regarding the threat against me, what she heard was the result of a conversation between my ex and I. I did what you recommended later in the quoted section. I called her and very calmly and rationally attempted to discuss some of the issues that I am seeing. I did so from the standpoint of the fact that I want to see the two of them (ex and daughter) have a good relationship. Tried to address the issues. In a 45 minute conversation, NOT ONCE did I raise my voice. During that period of time, 43 minutes was spent listening to my ex scream at me at the top of her lungs. This was done in front of her husband, her son, and my daughter. Her responses to my concerns were "If I'm such a horrible mother, then just TAKE HER!!! She should just live with YOU!!!" This was repeated roughly 8-10 times in a 5 minute stretch. Each time I tried to re-iterate that I was NOT saying any such thing. In the same conversation she sdmitted several times to saying bad things about me in front of our daughter, and TO our daughter. Her justification for such behavior? "I'm not PERFECT like you!!!!"

My point in all of this is that I have TRIED to do all of this the "right" way. I've already followed your suggestions on how to speak with my ex, and I've been through it many times. When I try to remain calm, and speak rationally, and utilize logic; when I try to point out that my #1 concern is the welfare of our child, I am told that I am "Talking down to her" and "Making her feel like a sh** mother".

The question is what do I do NOW? Now that I've exhausted all reasonable attempts at conversation (in my opinion)?

Quite frankly she is ten. She may just want to vent. So instead of just saying she needs to talk to mom, why don't you work on helping her approach mom. "Honey, I understand that you are upset. Is there a reason you can't tlak to your mom about this because I cannot do anything to change it?" Once you find out the reason, you help her brainstorm for solutions so that she can talk to mom. Instead of just sending her to mom.

I have to admit that while reading this is frustrating I understand it. You don't know me from Adam. I also realize that I didn't elaborate on the types of things I was talking about in my post. I'm involved in my situation and you aren't, so expecting you to understand without me clearly stating is foolish on my part. The types of things I am talking about as far as steering her back to her mother are the typical "whiney" pre-teen things. "I can't BELIEVE Mom wouldn't let me do ________!" type of things. When she has serious concerns or issues, it is dealt with exactly as you suggest. We talk about it, and I try to help her understand and recognize how to approach her mother about it. The problem is that she isn't encouraged to communicate with her mother-----by her mother! My ex is one of those people for whom everything in the world is about them. When our daughter tries to talk to her about things, it becomes about my ex and HER feelings, not my daughter's. She uses guilt in EXTREME ways (as does her new husband) to control my daughter.

How do you know she will though?

Because it has happened. Because I have witnessed it. Because my ex and looked me in the eye with my daughter standing right beside her and called my daughter a liar in a situation in which I KNEW that my ex was the one who was lying. Who would do that to their child? Try to make the child take the fall for the parent's actions?

Good for your wife. She should stay out of it. How do you know daughter is prohibited from telling you? And by the way have you had the discussion of good secrets and bad secrets with her yet?

I know she is prohibited from telling me because my ex has TOLD me that she has told my daughter that if she tells me what happens at their house she will be punished.

Also, yes, I've had the "good secrets/bad secrets" conversation with her. That (Thankfully) is one thing that I don't feel I have to worry about with my ex and her husband.

Talesien

 

[Ohiogal]

Don't talk anymore then. File for mediation and a change in custody to make it joint legal/physical custody based on status quo from x until current and outline specifically in the complaint what you have been doing. Also file to force child into counseling as said counseling is in the BEST INTEREST of the child.

 

[talesien]

OhioGal,

Thanks again for the response. Is this something I can do on my own, or would I need to hire an attorney? I assume that mediation wouldn't need an attorney?

If so, any direction you could point me in to get started would be greatly appreciated. I'm in Pickaway county.

Talesien

 

[Ohiogal]

You dont need an attorney if you can read the local rules, rules of civil procedure and evidence and the statutes. Go to the supreme court of Ohio website.