Case Law or Supporting Evidence for Speed Survey Defense

[ESchultz9]

New York (NYC/Queens)

Hello,
Is there any case law in NY relevant to the Speed Survey defense? I see a lot from CA but am struggling in NY.

Thank you.

 

[Zigner]

California is absolutely irrelevant.
Let's start out by asking why you think that the speed survey (or lack thereof) is even available as a defense in New York. Can you cite the New York law that requires it?

 

[FlyingRon]

California has a STATUTE mandating the speed survey in certain circumstances. There isn't such a statute in NY which is why its not a usual basis of defense (and hence you don't hear about it). As the song goes, California is a far cry from New York (OK, well that was Massachusetts).

In New York, there are statutes about who may set speed limits and what criteria they use in doing so, but a speed survey isn't involved.
The type of road, whether there's a school nearby, whether it's a residential, urban area, and what road you are on all figure into it. You can try to argue that the posted speed is improperly set, but you've still got a open-ended "reasonable and prudent" speed statute and theirs no "speed trap" law like in California.

 

[ESchultz9]

California has a STATUTE mandating the speed survey in certain circumstances. There isn't such a statute in NY which is why its not a usual basis of defense (and hence you don't hear about it). As the song goes, California is a far cry from New York (OK, well that was Massachusetts).

In New York, there are statutes about who may set speed limits and what criteria they use in doing so, but a speed survey isn't involved.
The type of road, whether there's a school nearby, whether it's a residential, urban area, and what road you are on all figure into it. You can try to argue that the posted speed is improperly set, but you've still got a open-ended "reasonable and prudent" speed statute and theirs no "speed trap" law like in California.

FlyingRon, can you please cite the statutes you mention?

 

[ESchultz9]

California is absolutely irrelevant.
Let's start out by asking why you think that the speed survey (or lack thereof) is even available as a defense in New York. Can you cite the New York law that requires it?

https://www.dot.ny.gov/mutcd
Section 1A.07, “23 CFR 655.603 also states that traffic control devices on all streets, highways,
bikeways, and private roads open to public travel in each State shall be in substantial conformance with
standards issued or endorsed by the Federal Highway Administrator.”

2B-13 of the MUTCD says:
“Speed zones (other than statutory speed limits) shall only be established on the basis of an engineering
study that has been performed in accordance with traffic engineering practices. The engineering study shall
include an analysis of the current speed distribution of free-flowing vehicles.”

The “Manual of Transportation Studies”, and the “Traffic engineering Handbook”, (both
recognized by traffic engineers throughout the U.S as THE manuals on how their jobs are to be conducted),
both state that a speed survey should be conducted every 5 years OR LESS. This has been upheld in CASE
LAW, as the NATIONAL standard.

Page 2B-13 (#12), “When a speed limit is to be posted, it should be within 5 mph of the 85thpercentile
speed of free-flowing traffic”

 

[FlyingRon]

Jeez: http://www.safeny.ny.gov/spee-vt.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_limits_in_the_United_States_by_jurisdiction#New_York

Nothing in the NY statutes requires MUTCD compliance. The CFR are FEDERAL REGULATIONS and don't put requirements on NY on either establishing or enforcing traffic laws. You just can't dredge up any snippet of a statute or regulation without full regard to its legal applicability.

 

[NeilTheCop]

New York (NYC/Queens)

Hello,
Is there any case law in NY relevant to the Speed Survey defense? I see a lot from CA but am struggling in NY.

Thank you.

Have you been ticketed for speeding, and if so how fast and in what circumstances?

 

[Zigner]

FlyingRon, can you please cite the statutes you mention?

There is no reason to cite any California statutes as they have absolutely no bearing on your matter.

 

[HighwayMan]

You'll get nowhere with this line of defense in the Traffic Violations Bureau, or any other court in New York State.

If you were written a speed in Queens it was probably by either a Highway Patrol officer or a precinct summons officer. Either way, they have tons of experience testifying in court, especially in speeding cases, and will not be losing unless they have a very bad day.

More than likely it is you who will have the bad day in court.

 

[ESchultz9]

Have you been ticketed for speeding, and if so how fast and in what circumstances?

Yes. 78 in a 50 on Grand Central EB. By the (short) time I pulled over I was in Nassau (northern state) where the limit is 55.
The portion of road is slightly downhill.

 

[ESchultz9]

Jeez: http://www.safeny.ny.gov/spee-vt.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_limits_in_the_United_States_by_jurisdiction#New_York

Nothing in the NY statutes requires MUTCD compliance. The CFR are FEDERAL REGULATIONS and don't put requirements on NY on either establishing or enforcing traffic laws. You just can't dredge up any snippet of a statute or regulation without full regard to its legal applicability.

NEW YORK STATE SUPPLEMENT
INTRODUCTION
The intent of the
Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices for Streets and Highways
(MUTCD) is to enhance highway safety and operation by requiring uniform,
understandable, and effective traffic control devices on facilities open to public travel.
Traffic control devices installed on such facilities within the State of New York are required to
conform to the MUTCD, published by the Federal Highway Administration (FHWA).
https://www.dot.ny.gov/divisions/op...stems/repository/B-2011Supplement-adopted.pdf

 

[FlyingRon]

Understand there's a difference between a standard and a statutory obligation.

 

[Zigner]

Even if the OP's right, he doesn't know (1) if the speed limit was established by use of a survey and/or (2) if the speed limit was statutorily set.

 

[ESchultz9]

Understand there's a difference between a standard and a statutory obligation.

The Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices (MUTCD) is incorporated by reference in 23 Code
of Federal Regulations (CFR), Part 655, Subpart F and shall be recognized as the national standard
for all traffic control devices installed on any street, highway, bikeway, or private road open to public
travel (see definition in Section 1A.13) in accordance with 23 U.S.C. 109(d) and 402(a). The policies and
procedures of the Federal Highway Administration (FHWA) to obtain basic uniformity of traffic control
devices shall be as described in 23 CFR 655, Subpart F.

 

[Zigner]

The Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices (MUTCD) is incorporated by reference in 23 Code
of Federal Regulations (CFR), Part 655, Subpart F and shall be recognized as the national standard
for all traffic control devices installed on any street, highway, bikeway, or private road open to public
travel (see definition in Section 1A.13) in accordance with 23 U.S.C. 109(d) and 402(a). The policies and
procedures of the Federal Highway Administration (FHWA) to obtain basic uniformity of traffic control
devices shall be as described in 23 CFR 655, Subpart F.

Each state is free to establish their own rules/laws/etc. for the roads in their state.