Court-Appointed Attorney?

[KansasPrincess]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Kansas

CSE has been helping me set up child support with my ex for our 4 year old son. He was served the paperwork from them Monday. He called me at 4:28 yelling and screaming for 8 minutes before I finally told him I was still at work and couldn't deal with him then. I found out Tuesday morning that he called our day care provider around 5:15 Monday night yelling at her, as well (like she has anything to do with it). After a few minutes of "venting", I guess we could call it, he demanded of her to provide him with every record of every thing he's paid to her since our child started going to day care there, along with his start date.

She told him she was busy (there were still kids at day care) and she would try to accommodate when she had time. He told her she would have it ready when he picked up our son Wednesday morning (today). She was very distraught is the main reason she spoke to me about it. I don't know exactly what he said to her on the phone, but it was to the point that she told me if he can't change his attitude and language toward her, he wouldn't be allowed to pick up or drop off our child again.

Anyway, I did the research for her yesterday afternoon. This is what cancelled checks are for... I have exact days they were written, what number they were, what amounts they were for, and what date they posted to my account... and the bank statements to back up my list. We had split the cost starting in March of 2010 where I would pay a week, then he would pay a week. So I gave her what I had paid and in the opposite weeks just said "His Responsibility" as I wouldn't have access to his check numbers or amounts he paid (though I assume it was the correct amout otherwise she would have told me he wasn't paying his part).

When he picked up our child today, she gave him the list. He said that his court-appointed attorney had requested it.

This brings up my questions... can you have a court-appointed attorney for child support orders? I thought they were only for criminal law? Could they also represent him for visitation orders? I'm thoroughly confused and have looked up everything I could think of to see if this was legit. When he had called and yelled at me on Monday, he said he couldn't afford an attorney. I told him I was going to do it pro se anyway, but now I feel like I need to give my attorney a call and see if he can take payments as I don't have the funds to really hire him right now.

Also, since I do not currently have an attorney on file, wouldn't his attorney have to send ME (since it would normally have to be sent to an attorney) a notice of appearance? I know they have to file it with the court, and if I did have an attorney they'd have to send them a notice, as well. Since I'm pro se, shouldn't I get a copy of their appearance?

Shouldn't his attorneys' request have been a discovery subpeona of records?

And just an FYI (not sure if this matters or not), our child started day care there in 8/2008. He didn't move out of my house until the very end of 2/2010 (his lease actually started in 3/2010, but the place was ready a few days early). We "broke up" in 8/2010 and he stopped helping with the house hold bills. I paid for everything for the house hold (including day care) for the 6 months (September through February) he was living on my couch. (Trust me, I tried to get him to help, but it was a lost cause... and I didn't have the heart to kick him out with nowhere to go since he IS the father of my child.) My bank statements and cancelled checks confirm all this, as well. Probably too much information, but like I said, I didn't know if it mattered with regards to his demands of our day care provider.

I'm sorry this has turned in to a book. This isn't even a chip off the ice, but everyone has a long story when it comes to ex's and children, right? I really do appreciate any help you can give me.What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)?

 

[Ohiogal]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Kansas

CSE has been helping me set up child support with my ex for our 4 year old son. He was served the paperwork from them Monday. He called me at 4:28 yelling and screaming for 8 minutes before I finally told him I was still at work and couldn't deal with him then. I found out Tuesday morning that he called our day care provider around 5:15 Monday night yelling at her, as well (like she has anything to do with it). After a few minutes of "venting", I guess we could call it, he demanded of her to provide him with every record of every thing he's paid to her since our child started going to day care there, along with his start date.

She told him she was busy (there were still kids at day care) and she would try to accommodate when she had time. He told her she would have it ready when he picked up our son Wednesday morning (today). She was very distraught is the main reason she spoke to me about it. I don't know exactly what he said to her on the phone, but it was to the point that she told me if he can't change his attitude and language toward her, he wouldn't be allowed to pick up or drop off our child again.

She cannot prevent him from picking up HIS child from daycare. If she tries to do so, she will find herself possibly being arrested. Prepare to find a new daycare.

Anyway, I did the research for her yesterday afternoon. This is what cancelled checks are for... I have exact days they were written, what number they were, what amounts they were for, and what date they posted to my account... and the bank statements to back up my list. We had split the cost starting in March of 2010 where I would pay a week, then he would pay a week. So I gave her what I had paid and in the opposite weeks just said "His Responsibility" as I wouldn't have access to his check numbers or amounts he paid (though I assume it was the correct amout otherwise she would have told me he wasn't paying his part).

So she basically LIED to him. Got it. Did she tell him that YOU prepared the list? Is she aware she will be subpoenaed to testify about this and therefore will have to admit she did not make the list and therefore he can argue he shouldn't have to pay a DIME towards daycare because she is not being honest by presenting the list as her records?

When he picked up our child today, she gave him the list. He said that his court-appointed attorney had requested it.

This brings up my questions... can you have a court-appointed attorney for child support orders?

It is possible.

I thought they were only for criminal law? Could they also represent him for visitation orders? I'm thoroughly confused and have looked up everything I could think of to see if this was legit. When he had called and yelled at me on Monday, he said he couldn't afford an attorney. I told him I was going to do it pro se anyway, but now I feel like I need to give my attorney a call and see if he can take payments as I don't have the funds to really hire him right now.

Your choice. And your attorney may or may not take payments.

Also, since I do not currently have an attorney on file, wouldn't his attorney have to send ME (since it would normally have to be sent to an attorney) a notice of appearance? I know they have to file it with the court, and if I did have an attorney they'd have to send them a notice, as well. Since I'm pro se, shouldn't I get a copy of their appearance?

If they filed a notice of appearance.

Shouldn't his attorneys' request have been a discovery subpeona of records?

Not necessarily since dad is ENTITLED to that information by law.

And just an FYI (not sure if this matters or not), our child started day care there in 8/2008. He didn't move out of my house until the very end of 2/2010 (his lease actually started in 3/2010, but the place was ready a few days early). We "broke up" in 8/2010 and he stopped helping with the house hold bills. I paid for everything for the house hold (including day care) for the 6 months (September through February) he was living on my couch. (Trust me, I tried to get him to help, but it was a lost cause... and I didn't have the heart to kick him out with nowhere to go since he IS the father of my child.) My bank statements and cancelled checks confirm all this, as well. Probably too much information, but like I said, I didn't know if it mattered with regards to his demands of our day care provider.

NOpe. It doesn't matter at all. he has every right to that information from the daycare provider.

I'm sorry this has turned in to a book. This isn't even a chip off the ice, but everyone has a long story when it comes to ex's and children, right? I really do appreciate any help you can give me.What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)?

Oh well. You are stuck with him.

 

[TheGeekess]

Child Support Enforcement Services

Kansas Judicial Branch - Child Support Guidelines

I'm not seeing anywhere that says he can get a court-appointed attorney, but on the KS Bar page, it does offer a number where one can call for free legal assistance in one's county.

If I need a lawyer, how can I find one?
Contact the Kansas Bar Association's Lawyer Referral Service.
Call 1-800-928-3111 and ask for the name of a lawyer who handles domestic relations cases. For those who cannot afford a private attorney, free legal assistance to low-income people is available in all counties.
Contact Kansas Legal Services, Inc., (KLS), 712 S. Kansas Avenue, Topeka, Kansas 66603, (785) 233-2068 to learn of the nearest KLS field office serving your county

Kansas Bar Association - Topeka, KS

 

[KansasPrincess]

Thanks for the speedy replies!

I spoke with my mom who is the County Court Clerk and has worked for the local PD for the last 24 years (she was in court earlier or I just would have asked her then) about a few things you said, Ohiogal, since they surprised me...

She cannot prevent him from picking up HIS child from daycare. If she tries to do so, she will find herself possibly being arrested. Prepare to find a new daycare.

This did surprise me quite a bit because anyone has the right to tell anyone else they're not allowed on their property. I'm not sure if it makes a difference in your response if I would have said it's a home day care...? Sorry I left that piece out; I didn't think about it when I was typing earlier. If it doesn't make a difference in your response, could you please elaborate? I really don't mean to sound rude... I would just like clarification of why she couldn't say he's not allowed on her property (even if his son is there). Technically, I could say he's not allowed on my property even if his son is here, so I really don't see a difference.

So she basically LIED to him. Got it. Did she tell him that YOU prepared the list? Is she aware she will be subpoenaed to testify about this and therefore will have to admit she did not make the list and therefore he can argue he shouldn't have to pay a DIME towards daycare because she is not being honest by presenting the list as her records?

She didn't lie to him. It was in my writing (which he knows) and it had references of "me" instead of my name. She didn't flat out say that I had provided it, but she didn't say she took the time on his uncalled for deadline to get it done either. I don't see anything wrong with what we did, so again, if you could clarify, it would really help. I don't want to make legal mistakes or get anyone in trouble. She and I both felt that it's his responsibility to track his own payments just as I track my own.

If they filed a notice of appearance.

So... they don't HAVE to? Sorry, I thought they did if something (anything) had been filed before attorneys were hired/appointed.

Not necessarily since dad is ENTITLED to that information by law.

Again, wouldn't he only be entitled to his own bookkeeping?

Yes, I know I'm stuck with him. I really don't mind him at all... we usually get along just fine and are civil to each other. I told him last June that I had to get state assistance and he would be receiving something from CSE since there were not orders set up (they advised me that they legally had to... it couldn't continue for us to just split weeks to pay day care, pre-school, and half school costs in the future... I really don't understand why, but they said for state assistance to come in to play, there HAS to be a court ordered child support.)

Thank you for your help... and again, I really don't mean to sound rude at all, I'm just trying to understand the legalities of your advice.

Thank you TheGeekess... I had been to the SRS site and the KSCourts site, but not the KSBar site. I asked mom about the court-appointed status, as well, and she said basically the same as you did... he may have mis-stated when he said court-appointed and meant he had a Legal Aide Attorney (which I didn't think of at the time).

Can Legal Aide Attorneys help with visitation, or would it just be the child support side of it? We are in agreement with visitation as we've been doing it without a court order for over a year. I just want to get down on paper with the courts what we've agreed to so there's no question about it a year from now (or whenever).

 

[CJane]

She cannot prevent him from picking up HIS child from daycare. If she tries to do so, she will find herself possibly being arrested. Prepare to find a new daycare.

This isn't actually true. If he's behaving in a threatening or otherwise inappropriate manner, they can absolutely refuse to allow him on the property and still provide child care.

So she basically LIED to him. Got it. Did she tell him that YOU prepared the list? Is she aware she will be subpoenaed to testify about this and therefore will have to admit she did not make the list and therefore he can argue he shouldn't have to pay a DIME towards daycare because she is not being honest by presenting the list as her records?

Actually, for a SRS / state child support (administrative case), it's HIGHLY unlikely that a subpoena would be issued, or that anyone other than the two parties would 'testify' as to costs. Mom presenting HER costs would be enough to determine how much child care costs and how it should factor into the child support order.

Not necessarily since dad is ENTITLED to that information by law.

Dad is not actually entitled to payment records for the daycare. At least not in any statute I can find. He's entitled to access to educational records, but daycare payment records don't easily fall into that category. And if he's been paying e/o week, he should have at least HALF of those records.

NOpe. It doesn't matter at all. he has every right to that information from the daycare provider.

Not necessarily.

 

[ElephantSntNose]

However, the daycare cannot refuse to release the child to him. So they would need to figure out how to get LO from the building to his car @ the curb.

 

[LdiJ]

Thanks for the speedy replies!

I spoke with my mom who is the County Court Clerk and has worked for the local PD for the last 24 years (she was in court earlier or I just would have asked her then) about a few things you said, Ohiogal, since they surprised me...



This did surprise me quite a bit because anyone has the right to tell anyone else they're not allowed on their property. I'm not sure if it makes a difference in your response if I would have said it's a home day care...? Sorry I left that piece out; I didn't think about it when I was typing earlier. If it doesn't make a difference in your response, could you please elaborate? I really don't mean to sound rude... I would just like clarification of why she couldn't say he's not allowed on her property (even if his son is there). Technically, I could say he's not allowed on my property even if his son is here, so I really don't see a difference.

I would say that's a grey area. She could bar him from her property due to his behavior but he could also insist on a new daycare provider, and would likely win on that issue in court if he is barred from her property.

She didn't lie to him. It was in my writing (which he knows) and it had references of "me" instead of my name. She didn't flat out say that I had provided it, but she didn't say she took the time on his uncalled for deadline to get it done either. I don't see anything wrong with what we did, so again, if you could clarify, it would really help. I don't want to make legal mistakes or get anyone in trouble. She and I both felt that it's his responsibility to track his own payments just as I track my own.

I am sorry but that one was silly on the part of the other poster. If the information is accurate, its immaterial who actually prepared it. Plus, dad shouldn't have needed the information anyway, he should have had his own records as to how much he paid.

Can Legal Aide Attorneys help with visitation, or would it just be the child support side of it? We are in agreement with visitation as we've been doing it without a court order for over a year. I just want to get down on paper with the courts what we've agreed to so there's no question about it a year from now (or whenever).

A legal aide attorney could help with basically anything their organization allows them to help with. It all depends on their case load and budget. I am a little surprised however that they would help with child support as that is normally pretty cut and dried.

 

[Ohiogal]

This isn't actually true. If he's behaving in a threatening or otherwise inappropriate manner, they can absolutely refuse to allow him on the property and still provide child care.

And dad can call the police and have her arrested for interfering with HIS custody of his child. In other words, a LEGAL STRANGER would preventing a PARENT from having their child. Which is against the law.

Actually, for a SRS / state child support (administrative case), it's HIGHLY unlikely that a subpoena would be issued, or that anyone other than the two parties would 'testify' as to costs. Mom presenting HER costs would be enough to determine how much child care costs and how it should factor into the child support order.

Except this mentioned court and court is NOT administrative so dad can subpoena the daycare worker and it would be an argument that the daycare worker was not presenting him with the records he requested.

Dad is not actually entitled to payment records for the daycare. At least not in any statute I can find. He's entitled to access to educational records, but daycare payment records don't easily fall into that category. And if he's been paying e/o week, he should have at least HALF of those records.

They fall into daycare records which parents are entitled to. He is entitled to all records concerning his child.

 

[Ohiogal]

I would say that's a grey area. She could bar him from her property due to his behavior but he could also insist on a new daycare provider, and would likely win on that issue in court if he is barred from her property.

And he could call the police if he wanted his child and have her arrested for interfering with his custody rights.

I am sorry but that one was silly on the part of the other poster. If the information is accurate, its immaterial who actually prepared it. Plus, dad shouldn't have needed the information anyway, he should have had his own records as to how much he paid

.
WRONG. The rules of evidence are specific on this point. Dad was asking for records of the daycare. The daycare records need to be testified about as business records -- those records PREPARED by the business. So it does matter. If you understand the rules of evidence and courtroom procedure you would understand that. Apparently you don't understand the basics however. Records need a foundation laid to have them submitted. If dad asked for the daycare provider's records and she gave records she (or an employee) did not prepare those records are not admissible.

A legal aide attorney could help with basically anything their organization allows them to help with. It all depends on their case load and budget. I am a little surprised however that they would help with child support as that is normally pretty cut and dried.

No it isn't. There are possibilities of fraud and deviations. I know. I do legal aid cases that deal with child support. Child support is NOT always cut and dry.

 

[TinkerBelleLuvr]

For child support, you don't necessarily have to have an attorney because it's straight numbers. I always have one, but that's cuz I'm out of state and she is the one that contacts me telephonically during the hearing.

 

[LdiJ]

And he could call the police if he wanted his child and have her arrested for interfering with his custody rights.


.
WRONG. The rules of evidence are specific on this point. Dad was asking for records of the daycare. The daycare records need to be testified about as business records -- those records PREPARED by the business. So it does matter. If you understand the rules of evidence and courtroom procedure you would understand that. Apparently you don't understand the basics however. Records need a foundation laid to have them submitted. If dad asked for the daycare provider's records and she gave records she (or an employee) did not prepare those records are not admissible.



No it isn't. There are possibilities of fraud and deviations. I know. I do legal aid cases that deal with child support. Child support is NOT always cut and dry.

Dad did not subpeona information from the daycare provider. Therefore its immaterial who prepared the information. On top of that, any daycare providers records are PER CHILD, therefore no daycare provider would have a record of separate individuals who might have made payments towards that child's care. Therefore the daycare provider could not have complied with dad's incredibly harassing demand even if it had been subpeona'd.

 

[Ohiogal]

Dad did not subpeona information from the daycare provider. Therefore its immaterial who prepared the information. On top of that, any daycare providers records are PER CHILD, therefore no daycare provider would have a record of separate individuals who might have made payments towards that child's care. Therefore the daycare provider could not have complied with dad's incredibly harassing demand even if it had been subpeona'd.

Incredibly harrassing? Really? Not quite. He asked for copies of the records which the daycare provider should have been able to provide rather quickly if she is keeping proper books.

 

[CJane]

And he could call the police if he wanted his child and have her arrested for interfering with his custody rights.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on that one. Having been involved in a case in Kansas where something similar occurred, I know that at least in 2 counties the police would NOT arrest the daycare provider as long as said provider was willing to release the child to ONE of the parents.

The daycare provider is not bound by the court order and does not HAVE to determine whether it's Dad's day or Mom's day.

Ldi, I could actually see a judge telling Dad that he has to p/u from Mom after she picks kiddo up from daycare rather than forcing a change in daycare. I've seen it happen.

WRONG. The rules of evidence are specific on this point. Dad was asking for records of the daycare. The daycare records need to be testified about as business records -- those records PREPARED by the business. So it does matter. If you understand the rules of evidence and courtroom procedure you would understand that. Apparently you don't understand the basics however. Records need a foundation laid to have them submitted. If dad asked for the daycare provider's records and she gave records she (or an employee) did not prepare those records are not admissible.

Except this isn't 'evidence', it wasn't requested during formal discovery. It was requested by Dad via telephone with an unreasonable time frame attached.

And while "court" was mentioned in the context of a court appointed attorney, the original post says that the state is "helping" her get child support and later she mentions that it's because she's on state aid. Which means this is an administrative issue.

No it isn't. There are possibilities of fraud and deviations. I know. I do legal aid cases that deal with child support. Child support is NOT always cut and dry.

The ONLY way there will be deviations is if this IS a court case - as in filed IN the circuit/county court and held as a hearing in front of a judge. And that's not my understanding of what's happening based on OP's posts. A state case (administrative) does not allow for deviations.

 

[Ohiogal]

Thanks for the speedy replies!

I spoke with my mom who is the County Court Clerk and has worked for the local PD for the last 24 years (she was in court earlier or I just would have asked her then) about a few things you said, Ohiogal, since they surprised me...



This did surprise me quite a bit because anyone has the right to tell anyone else they're not allowed on their property. I'm not sure if it makes a difference in your response if I would have said it's a home day care...?

She is a legal stranger and without a court order prohibiting dad from his child she cannot stop him from getting his child from her. He can call the police and have her arrested. Now if she wants to try to prohibit him then most likely you will be looking for other day care.

Sorry I left that piece out; I didn't think about it when I was typing earlier. If it doesn't make a difference in your response, could you please elaborate? I really don't mean to sound rude... I would just like clarification of why she couldn't say he's not allowed on her property (even if his son is there). Technically, I could say he's not allowed on my property even if his son is here, so I really don't see a difference.

YOu could but there are differences -- you are NOT a legal stranger to the child. Also if there is a court order allowing him to pick up his child, you can be held accountable by the court for contempt.

She didn't lie to him. It was in my writing (which he knows) and it had references of "me" instead of my name. She didn't flat out say that I had provided it, but she didn't say she took the time on his uncalled for deadline to get it done either. I don't see anything wrong with what we did, so again, if you could clarify, it would really help. I don't want to make legal mistakes or get anyone in trouble. She and I both felt that it's his responsibility to track his own payments just as I track my own.

It was not uncalled for. If she had records for each child she could have made copies in the 36 hours she had.

So... they don't HAVE to? Sorry, I thought they did if something (anything) had been filed before attorneys were hired/appointed.

Nope. Technically the attorney could show up the day of the hearing and put in a notice on the record.

Again, wouldn't he only be entitled to his own bookkeeping?

He is entitled to whatever records to which you are entitled and vice versa.

Yes, I know I'm stuck with him. I really don't mind him at all... we usually get along just fine and are civil to each other. I told him last June that I had to get state assistance and he would be receiving something from CSE since there were not orders set up (they advised me that they legally had to... it couldn't continue for us to just split weeks to pay day care, pre-school, and half school costs in the future... I really don't understand why, but they said for state assistance to come in to play, there HAS to be a court ordered child support.)

Because BOTH PARENTS should be supporting the child BEFORE the tax payers support the child.

Thank you for your help... and again, I really don't mean to sound rude at all, I'm just trying to understand the legalities of your advice.

You are not rude or sounding rude.

Thank you TheGeekess... I had been to the SRS site and the KSCourts site, but not the KSBar site. I asked mom about the court-appointed status, as well, and she said basically the same as you did... he may have mis-stated when he said court-appointed and meant he had a Legal Aide Attorney (which I didn't think of at the time).

Can Legal Aide Attorneys help with visitation, or would it just be the child support side of it? We are in agreement with visitation as we've been doing it without a court order for over a year. I just want to get down on paper with the courts what we've agreed to so there's no question about it a year from now (or whenever).

Legal Aid attorneys possibly could help with visitation and support. I have done both as a contract attorney with Legal Aid in my area.

 

[CJane]

Incredibly harrassing? Really? Not quite. He asked for copies of the records which the daycare provider should have been able to provide rather quickly if she is keeping proper books.

This is in home daycare. Maybe she doesn't keep "books" at all.

I know MY daycare provider would have a really hard time providing records of payment on demand. My payments to her are direct deposited into her husband's savings account. So she'd have to wait for HIM to get home from work, go to the bank, request statements going back however far the records were requested for, and then figure out which deposits were mine.

And sometimes, I pay her in cash. 2 years ago, I paid her a year in advance so she could buy a car. For a couple years, I paid her 6 months at a time. For awhile, I paid her every Friday. Then it was every pay day. When I got paid once/month, SHE got paid once/month.

But all CSE required to set an order and include the amounts paid was a statement from the provider (not even notarized) saying that daycare is $X/week.