Does the 4th Protect This?

[migvilla]

(New Jersey)

Hi, i have a brief question and I apologize in advance if i did not find the appropriate section to post it under. However, in recent years a lightrail has been installed in my city, extending to neighboring towns and the like. In the process of it's construction, no turn stops where installed, meaning anyone is free to walk in and out of the platforms. Before boarding a train though, you are required by law to purchase a ticket and have a machine stamp a validation code on it. This code is a reference to the time it was stamped. The ticket is good for 2 hours.

I am having an issue with one of the practices my city, the police and those police of neighboring city's are practicing. See, because people abuse the system, many take the chance and get on the lightrail without paying first. For this, the police often patrol cars and will ask you to produce your validated ticket. If you do not have one, you are fined up to $100 dollars. I do not have a problem with this aspect. This is how things have been normally done practically since the invention of the train. In addition, the police patrol the outside platforms, the concrete areas located externally that run parallel to the tracks. I can understand them also stopping people out here, which they do. However, doesn't the Fourth Ammendment protect us from such practices?:

In the context of investigatory stops and detentions,

1. Police may stop you for any reason, but are not entitled to any information other than your identification

2. Police may not detain you without reasonable suspicion

3. Police may not search you without either probable cause or your consent. Don't consent to warrantless searches!

4. Police will often try to trick you into thinking you can't leave. Ask if you are free to go.

In addition, the main thing I am having an issue with is that they are stopping people upon exit in batches. Meaning, everyone who gets off the lightrail is detained for a couple of minutes, and they can each leave as they produce their lightrail ticket. Again, this is not done within the lightrail cart itself, it's done after the fact, when the cart has stopped and everyone has exited.

Isn't it their responsibility to ask for tickets if we're in the cart? I feel that they are extending their power to a grey area, when they stop people in batches like this. Why should I be detained, even if for two minutes, so that they can get their act together? If they ever stop me in this fashion again, do I have to right to ask if I am being detained and if not to simply walk away and not produce a ticket, despite the fact that the ticket may be in my pocket?

Any advice or thoughts will be helpful.

Miguel

 

[CdwJava]

However, doesn't the Fourth Ammendment protect us from such practices?

No.

1. Police may stop you for any reason, but are not entitled to any information other than your identification

Not necessarily true. They cannot detain you for any reason, but they may contact you. A detention requires articulable reasonable cause. If you are on a train, they can ask for a ticket to ascertain whether you have a right to belong - this is reasonable cause.

2. Police may not detain you without reasonable suspicion

Correct.

3. Police may not search you without either probable cause or your consent. Don't consent to warrantless searches!

Mostly true. However, they MAY conduct a pat down for weapons with minimal articulable cause.

4. Police will often try to trick you into thinking you can't leave. Ask if you are free to go.

Generally a good idea. But it ain't gonna happen if you are on a train.

Again, this is not done within the lightrail cart itself, it's done after the fact, when the cart has stopped and everyone has exited.

It seems logical to assume that if they are getting off the lightrail they should have a ticket.

Isn't it their responsibility to ask for tickets if we're in the cart?

Not unless that is what the law says. Otherwise they can make contact as reasonable to enforce the law.

I feel that they are extending their power to a grey area, when they stop people in batches like this.

Then get yourself detained and arrested when you refuse to comply, then hire an attorney to challenge the detention process. Good luck.

Why should I be detained, even if for two minutes, so that they can get their act together?

Why should you not have your ticket ready? when I ride light rail out here I keep it readily accessable for just such a purpose. When I used to patrol the light rail in San Diego we used to detain on the cars and sometimes upon exit. It's pretty common fare, and I assume that if there was a challenge to this policy the ACLU or others would have hit upon it a couple decades ago.

If they ever stop me in this fashion again, do I have to right to ask if I am being detained and if not to simply walk away and not produce a ticket, despite the fact that the ticket may be in my pocket?

You can ASK anything you want. Just be prepared to be arrested if you refuse to comply. If they say you are being detained, I presume you will produce the ticket?

- Carl

 

[tranquility]

If you are on a train, they can ask for a ticket to ascertain whether you have a right to belong - this is reasonable cause.

Technically this would either be allowed by statute or by "administrative exception" it would not be "reasonable cause".

 

[CdwJava]

Technically this would either be allowed by statute or by "administrative exception" it would not be "reasonable cause".

Six of one ...

Responding before coffee takes a toll.

- Carl

 

[migvilla]

Why should you not have your ticket ready? when I ride light rail out here I keep it readily accessable for just such a purpose. When I used to patrol the light rail in San Diego we used to detain on the cars and sometimes upon exit. It's pretty common fare, and I assume that if there was a challenge to this policy the ACLU or others would have hit upon it a couple decades ago.

- Carl

I appreciate your reponses to the other areas i touched on. However, i don't have a problem with them checking tickets on the train. Nor individual stops. It's when they stop people in masses. I don't owe them those few minutes nor do i feel they have the right to take it from me. I doubt the ACLU has so much free time, even throughout the years, that could have evern been bothered with this, especially at this crucial juncture in time. So to answer your question, it's not so much a matter of having my ticket ready as much as it is permitting or establishing what law enforcement can or can not do.

Also, while I am thankful you replied, I can see that as a (past/present) police officer your answer would most likely have bias, no offense. I am willing to challenge this, but I am first going to consult with someone more versed regarding civil liberties.

Miguel

 

[migvilla]

Technically this would either be allowed by statute or by "administrative exception" it would not be "reasonable cause".

Wait, please elaborate on this answer. What aspect of the law would allow this? I think this is the answer I was looking for. Would you be able to point me in the direction of something written that I could read?

Miguel

 

[CdwJava]

I appreciate your reponses to the other areas i touched on. However, i don't have a problem with them checking tickets on the train. Nor individual stops. It's when they stop people in masses.

Then change the rules, challenge the law, or disobey. When/if you are charged, then you will have an avenue to pursue a legal challenge to the practice.

So to answer your question, it's not so much a matter of having my ticket ready as much as it is permitting or establishing what law enforcement can or can not do.

Same answer - get yourself arrested so that you can challenge the matter.

Also, while I am thankful you replied, I can see that as a (past/present) police officer your answer would most likely have bias, no offense. I am willing to challenge this, but I am first going to consult with someone more versed regarding civil liberties.

Ah, so ... because I am an officer of the law, I do not have a grasp of civil liberties? Who do you think is more directly involved in the practice and enforcement of said liberties?

In any event, you certainly have a right to speak to an attorney at your own cost.

Good luck.

- Carl

Miguel[/QUOTE]

 

[migvilla]

Then change the rules, challenge the law, or disobey. When/if you are charged, then you will have an avenue to pursue a legal challenge to the practice.


Same answer - get yourself arrested so that you can challenge the matter.


Ah, so ... because I am an officer of the law, I do not have a grasp of civil liberties? Who do you think is more directly involved in the practice and enforcement of said liberties?

In any event, you certainly have a right to speak to an attorney at your own cost.

Good luck.

- Carl

No, no. See you misunderstand me. I appreciate your answers, but what I am saying is that, due to the fact that you are an officer, you will have more of inclination to give me an answer that is sympathetic or empathetic to the plight of your peers. "Oh how tough law enforcement already has it, why would you want to complicate matters for us since we only want to protect you".. etc..

Also, to clarify i have no problem in accepting your responses, they were great. I am really thankful for your time. Nonetheless, it will only be after a sincere degree of research and consulting, advice from someone who i know is an expert in civil law (after I find him/her), that I would attempt to dissent in such a way.

This is just a messageboard, after all.

Miguel

 

[Ohiogal]

No, no. See you misunderstand me. I appreciate your answers, but what I am saying is that, due to the fact that you are an officer, you will have more of inclination to give me an answer that is sympathetic or empathetic to the plight of your peers. "Oh how tough law enforcement already has it, why would you want to complicate matters for us since we only want to protect you".. etc..

Also, to clarify i have no problem in accepting your responses, they were great. I am really thankful for your time. Nonetheless, it will only be after a sincere degree of research and consulting, advice from someone who i know is an expert in civil law (after I find him/her), that I would attempt to dissent in such a way.

This is just a messageboard, after all.

Miguel

You are out of line. He gave you a proper legal answer and his answers are not biased. He may at times express WHY things are done the way they are but his answers do not present a rousing bias for police officers.

 

[tranquility]

The statutes in your state/municipality will state the rules of riding on the train and the rights of police officers to check for tickets. Here, they enable the check on the train or on the platform beyond the ticket machine and if you are at those places and found without a ticket, you are guility of a misdemeanor. There are warning signs posted and the public is informed by statute. You accept the police power that is specifically given them by your falling under the ordinance. A different example in CA would be that state law (unless they've changed it) does not make it illegal to wear a handgun that is publically displayed. (i.e. A sixgun in a holster.) However, by statute, a peace officer has the right to detain you and inspect the weapon. They don't need a reasonable suspicion that you are related to crime in some way, the state statute gives them the right.

As to the administrative exception, this is often used for checkpoints and the like. (Perhaps like a "checkpoint" to check your ticket as you leave the platform.) Examples of this are, license and registration checkpoints, border control checkpoints, airport/courhouse/government building checkpoints, hunting/fishing license checks and so on.

I recently read a law review article which made the point that 4th amendment jurisprudence has gotten away from a theoretical framework and instead has changed in to a complex code where the exceptions overwhelm the rule. To specifically answer the questions you are really asking, it would take a search of case law based on the facts as developed. The specific enabling statutes and the specific stops and patterns and policies of the police in making those stops. Only a person truly motivated would go through all that effort, when at the end of the day, the answer will only apply to a specific factual scenario.

 

[migvilla]

The statutes in your state/municipality will state the rules of riding on the train and the rights of police officers to check for tickets. Here, they enable the check on the train or on the platform beyond the ticket machine and if you are at those places and found without a ticket, you are guility of a misdemeanor. There are warning signs posted and the public is informed by statute. You accept the police power that is specifically given them by your falling under the ordinance. A different example in CA would be that state law (unless they've changed it) does not make it illegal to wear a handgun that is publically displayed. (i.e. A sixgun in a holster.) However, by statute, a peace officer has the right to detain you and inspect the weapon. They don't need a reasonable suspicion that you are related to crime in some way, the state statute gives them the right.

As to the administrative exception, this is often used for checkpoints and the like. (Perhaps like a "checkpoint" to check your ticket as you leave the platform.) Examples of this are, license and registration checkpoints, border control checkpoints, airport/courhouse/government building checkpoints, hunting/fishing license checks and so on.

I recently read a law review article which made the point that 4th amendment jurisprudence has gotten away from a theoretical framework and instead has changed in to a complex code where the exceptions overwhelm the rule. To specifically answer the questions you are really asking, it would take a search of case law based on the facts as developed. The specific enabling statutes and the specific stops and patterns and policies of the police in making those stops. Only a person truly motivated would go through all that effort, when at the end of the day, the answer will only apply to a specific factual scenario.

Thank you for your answers and examples. I will try to find additional references.

Miguel

 

[BelizeBreeze]

Thank you for your answers and examples. I will try to find additional references.

Miguel

the plain fact is, you have the right, as you've been told, to challenge the system however, to do so you have three and only three choices:

1. purchase the rail line and change the practice.
2. run for office and introduce a bill to change the practice.
3. civil disobedience: get arrested and challenge the practice.

otherwise, stop riding the rail. It's really that simple.

 

[migvilla]

otherwise, stop riding the rail. It's really that simple.

Avoiding the lightrail quantifies the problem. I'm not asking how to avoid what In my opinion is a problem, I am preparing to face it. If i wanted to stop riding the rail, i would have done so and not come here asking these questions.

You're advice is great, though. Thanks so much.