Grandmama Drama

[proud_parent]

What is the name of your state? Iowa

*sigh * I ought not have had delusions about trading in that nag. Now the llama has spit in my eye.

For those unfamiliar with the backstory: https://forum.freeadvice.com/showthread.php?t=406719

To bring you up to speed on the Mama drama:

• After much soul searching, D did send her mom a card for Mother's Day. She thoughtfully chose one that wasn't overly sentimental, but that did say "With Love". Her reasoning: "That way, it won't make her feel bad...but I'm ONLY signing my name and XOXO."
• X phoned D herself on Mother's Day. They spoke approx. 40 minutes, discussing (as D tells it) her mom's exciting travels, the book her mom is writing, etc. "We didn't talk so much about me", D noted.
• Mother's Day concluded with the usual hour-long post-telephone sob fest and reassurances before bed. D gave me a huge hug and said, "I hope your Mother's Day was good. Thank you for being there for me on all my special days."
• The phone call from X appears to have been a one-off. She has not phoned D since.

Now, on to the present subject...

H arranged for D to spend Memorial Day weekend with her maternal grandparents. Grandmother drove in on Friday night, and D spent the night at her hotel before leaving Saturday. H met GM at a halfway point on Monday afternoon to bring D home.

H was grumpy on return. He pulled me aside and recounted that on the drive back, D described some upsetting events that occurred Sunday night. Her Grandfather experienced pain and numbness in his arm and shoulder, such that GM took him to the ER. (He was given bloodwork, xrays, painkillers, and discharged to home.) D of course accompanied them to the hospital.

D's been to the ER with us before (once when H had double vision, and again when a game of tag with her little sister resulted in our toddler needing stitches) and handled both very well; this time was different. In D's words, she got so scared and worried about GF, that GM "had to call my mom, so she could calm me down". H was torqued off that GM hadn't phoned him instead. His take was that seeking emotional support from X was like pouring gasoline on a fire. I tried to reason with him that GM was probably freaked out herself; no wonder she would call her own daughter (even an estranged daughter) before her ex son-in-law. As D didn't say much about her conversation with her mom, no lasting harm done, we concluded. Still, D was unusually crabby and given to backtalk all night. We surmised it must have been the "vacation" effect of living under a different set of rules and expectations for three days, and that she'd soon be back to normal.

Tonight, I had no sooner walked in the door when D announced that she had some things she wanted to tell me. H shot me a look that said, "Hold on to your knickers..." D then retold what she had just told her father... that D had brought up the subject of choices (a big theme with D these days) with her grandparents. She had told them straight out that she loves her mom but isn't thrilled with the choices she's been making. D said that the GPs admitted to feeling pretty much the same.

Now the kicker: D announced, "Grandma told me that she's trying to make it so that I would go live there permanently." D went on to describe at length how GM explained to her that she was "going to get a kid's lawyer" for D, and that "she wants me to sit in a room with a judge and a lawyer and tell them that I want to live there with her and Grandpa". D's eyes got huge. "I don't think she can really do that -- can she?" Assurances from H and I that no, she cannot. Then from D, "If I had a lawyer and a judge and they asked me, I would tell them that I want to go on living here permanently and just go visit my grandparents." Assurances from both of us that there is no need for her to tell a judge or a GAL anything, that of course she will go on living with us. Finally, D looked straight at me and said, "And I don't think it's right that if something happens to my mom and dad, you and [stepdad] don't have any say over where I live." Reassurances from me that if something did happen to her parents, I would of course do everything that I can to make certain that D is well cared for. But you know me...sucker for the truth. I felt compelled to add, "But since you brought it up, legally I cannot make the decisions. Neither can your stepdad or your grandparents. That's why I'm very glad that you have two parents and that there are such persons as lawyers and judges to look out for you if something did happen."

H had to leave for a meeting at that point, but D and I talked some more. I told her that her father and I are glad that she knows she can tell us about things that are upsetting her. But I reminded her that we DO NOT expect her to catalog every conversation with her grandparents and then tattle to us. I reassured her that time spent with her grandparents is a good thing, and that it is only right that she love them and they love her very much. We talked a bit about wishful thinking, and how wanting something doesn't make it so; she immediately comprehended that I was speaking about GM. I then urged her to brainstorm what she might say to GM to cut her off if she brings up this subject again. I ended by telling D that she should not have to be put in the position of making any decisions that should be made by a parent. Her response: "Yeah, you're SOOOO right! I don't want to be monkey in the middle anymore, with people throwing things back and forth over my head and making me grab for them."

As for D, I hope we defused her concerns appropriately.

Needless to say, H is furious with GM. He asked me to post to seek advice as to how to deal with her. He wants to communicate to the GPs clearly that dragging D into legal matters is absolutely not to be tolerated, but he doesn't know how to broach the subject, or whether to do so in writing or over the phone. He's also in a quandry over how to approach future visits with the GPs; at the exchange Sunday, GM was already angling for D to spend a few days with them again in July. H doesn't want to punish D by putting his foot down on overnights alone with them, especially with her mom AWOL in her life, but neither does he want to open it up for this kind of stunt being pulled again.

I had sincerely believed that significant progress had been made on this front since D came to live with us. When X moved overseas, GM was full of about "taking over" EOW visitation from her daughter, even having D live with the GPs "for a while". That nonsense lightened considerably as H made overtures to the grandparents while firmly standing his ground. Perhaps X's announcement about her decision never again to exercise visitation has rekindled those ideas.

Helpful thoughts on how to proceed?

 

[>Charlotte<]

He wants to communicate to the GPs clearly that dragging D into legal matters is absolutely not to be tolerated, but he doesn't know how to broach the subject.

DH: "Hello, Grandma? Dragging D into legal matters is absolutely not to be tolerated." *Click*

Right now it's just a thing. If he swings at what she's pitching, it could escalate into an issue, and then it becomes an uproar, and before you know it you've got yourselves a great big brouhaha.

Grandma can want what she wants all she wants. Tell Grandma to wish in one hand and spit in the other, and see which one fills up first. Then assure your stepdaughter that her home is with her father and will remain so, and then go out for pizza. I recommend pepperoni, black olives, green peppers, onions, mushrooms, extra cheese, and light on the sauce.

 

[LdiJ]

DH: "Hello, Grandma? Dragging D into legal matters is absolutely not to be tolerated." *Click*

Right now it's just a thing. If he swings at what she's pitching, it could escalate into an issue, and then it becomes an uproar, and before you know it you've got yourselves a great big brouhaha.

Grandma can want what she wants all she wants. Tell Grandma to wish in one hand and spit in the other, and see which one fills up first. Then assure your stepdaughter that her home is with her father and will remain so, and then go out for pizza. I recommend pepperoni, black olives, green peppers, onions, mushrooms, extra cheese, and light on the sauce.

I would put it a little differently....and in writing.

Dear Grandma,

D was quite upset that you talked to her about attempting to gain custody of her. Particularly the fact that you told her that she needed to say that she wanted to live with you. That put her in the position of not wanting to hurt your feelings by telling you the truth, that she wants to remain with her father.

I have consulted with an attorney who has assured me that you have absolutely no legal standing to file for custody of D.

D loves you very much. Please do not put her in that kind of position again. It is completely unfair to her, and I cannot tolerate that.

 

[proud_parent]

DH: "Hello, Grandma? Dragging D into legal matters is absolutely not to be tolerated." *Click*

Right now it's just a thing. If he swings at what she's pitching, it could escalate into an issue, and then it becomes an uproar, and before you know it you've got yourselves a great big brouhaha.

Thanks, Clt...that made me smile!

Grandma can want what she wants all she wants. Tell Grandma to wish in one hand and spit in the other, and see which one fills up first.

That sounds exactly like something my husband would say.

Then assure your stepdaughter that her home is with her father and will remain so, and then go out for pizza. I recommend pepperoni, black olives, green peppers, onions, mushrooms, extra cheese, and light on the sauce.

Dang, you've just described our favorite pizza, but substitute sausage for pepperoni. Mmmmmm....Palace Special. Yum yum! Pepperoni and cheese only for the girls.

 

[proud_parent]

I would put it a little differently....and in writing.

Dear Grandma,

D was quite upset that you talked to her about attempting to gain custody of her. Particularly the fact that you told her that she needed to say that she wanted to live with you. That put her in the position of not wanting to hurt your feelings by telling you the truth, that she wants to remain with her father.

I have consulted with an attorney who has assured me that you have absolutely no legal standing to file for custody of D.

D loves you very much. Please do not put her in that kind of position again. It is completely unfair to her, and I cannot tolerate that.

Very thoughtful response, Ldij. Thank you.

 

[penelope10]

Silver reminded me of an old word I hadn't heard in a long time. Asked her if I could use it, she said sure. That word is dunderhead. GM was having a dunderhead moment. Don't know GM is a dunderhead all the time or just this time. However, GM needs to be reminded that it is unacceptable for kiddo to be drug in the middle of adult matters anymore.

Like I said, I've seen GP's want to give their adult children chance after chance after chance to do the right thing. (Including being a parent) .Hence calling Mom from the hospital instead of Dad. It's really quite frustrating. Seems that you guys have a handle on it with the kiddo, per the discussion you guys had with her.

I liked the letter LD suggested. You could send one similar. Or Dad can call GM and have a heart to heart with her. Don't know if she'll be receptive or not since I don't know the lady. GM knows kiddo has been having problems evidenced by their talk together about Mom. Let GM know this is upsetting to kiddo. Remind GM that you know she loves kiddo, that you want she and kiddo to spend time together, however, not at the risk of upsetting kiddo. GM should not be stating that they want to get custody of the kiddo. Not realistic and damaging to the child. Not gonna happen and talk like this had better not happen around the kiddo again. (Doesn't have to be said as harshly as this)

GM's response will then guide the type of letter Dad will need to send to her.

 

[proud_parent]

Silver reminded me of an old word I hadn't heard in a long time. Asked her if I could use it, she said sure. That word is dunderhead. GM was having a dunderhead moment. Don't know GM is a dunderhead all the time or just this time. However, GM needs to be reminded that it is unacceptable for kiddo to be drug in the middle of adult matters anymore.

Like I said, I've seen GP's want to give their adult children chance after chance after chance to do the right thing. (Including being a parent) .Hence calling Mom from the hospital instead of Dad. It's really quite frustrating. Seems that you guys have a handle on it with the kiddo, per the discussion you guys had with her.

I liked the letter LD suggested. You could send one similar. Or Dad can call GM and have a heart to heart with her. Don't know if she'll be receptive or not since I don't know the lady. GM knows kiddo has been having problems evidenced by their talk together about Mom. Let GM know this is upsetting to kiddo. Remind GM that you know she loves kiddo, that you want she and kiddo to spend time together, however, not at the risk of upsetting kiddo. GM should not be stating that they want to get custody of the kiddo. Not realistic and damaging to the child. Not gonna happen and talk like this had better not happen around the kiddo again. (Doesn't have to be said as harshly as this)

GM's response will then guide the type of letter Dad will need to send to her.

Thank you very much for you input, Pen.

I will pass all these thoughts along to H tonight.

 

[LdiJ]

I am going to add some things here that may be useful to you. I am part of an organization that helps fit parents fight against legal action from grandparents. I personally paid for a big chunk of the expense of one of the Amicus Briefs that was submitted in the Troxel vs Troxel case before the USSC. The attorney that wrote that brief is probably the foremost expert on gpv in the US, and was my mentor.

Now...I will EMPHASIZE...this discussion is in regards to situations where the parent the grandparent is fighting against is a fit parent. This discussion DOES NOT apply to situations where the parent is legally unfit.

One of the things that you need to realize, is that grandmothers, in general (even stepgrandmothers, sometimes even more so stepgranmothers) are usually the motivating force behind gp legal action regarding grandchildren. Grandfathers who are the motivating force are a quite small percentage.

There are many different factors that play into this. Some of the stronger ones are:

1) Grandmothers who have helped the custodial parent raise the child, and cannot emotionally fathom that the child would prefer to live with the other parent. In their eyes its custodial parent first, grandmother second, non custodial parent third.

2) Grandmothers whose own child is out of the picture due to be awol, rights terminated, deceased and who honestly and emotionally believe that they "inherit" their absent child's rights.....or are so "needy" that they see the grandchildren as a replacement for their deceased child.

3) Grandmothers who feel that they can no longer control adult children, and attempt to do so through the grandchildren.

4) Grandmothers who disagree with the parenting choices of their grandchildren's parents whether those choices constitute unfitness or not.

5) Grandparents who are nervous about a major change in the lives of their grandchildren, and get bad, cheerleading advice from internet websites, and who bitterly regret starting lawsuits later.

Then of course there are the grandparents who can't stay out of parent vs parent disputes, and make things worse rather than better.

Number 5 is probably the biggest catagory since Troxel. Many grandparents who are decent people, but misguided, file lawsuits and lose, and lose contact with their grandchildren, all because some anonymous person on an internet website convinced them that they had "rights". So instead of doing what was necessary to make themselves a welcome part of the children's lives, and therefore a friend and helper to the parent, they sue. Or instead of resolving their problems with their adult children, they sue.

I suspect that the grandmother that you are dealing with is a combination. I suspect that she helped far more than you realize in the raising of the child, and therefore emotionally views herself as another parent, and emotionally cannot grasp why the child would want to be with your husband rather than her.

In addition, I think that she is probably running scared. She is finally accepting that her daughter is not the parent that she wants her daughter to be, and is terrified that she will lose her grandchild as a result. She may even subconciously recognize that you are being a better mother to her grandchild that her daughter is/was, and wants to negate that by taking over the mother role herself.

That is why I suggested responding the way that I did. That lets the grandmother know that her behavior was unacceptable, that its not legally valid, but that your husband recognizes the emotional bond. It puts grandma on notice that dad is secure in his position, grandma is dreaming, but that dad isn't going to cut her off unless she continues the behavior....without specifically making those statements.

Its a "dance". The best interest of the child is a healthy realtionship with all of her extended family....with emphasis on "healthy". If grandma is smart she will talk to an attorney, find out that she has no standing and will start playing nice. If grandma is foolish, that won't happen, and no matter what she ends up trying legally, she will eventually ruin her relationship with the child.

 

[proud_parent]

Thank you again, LdiJ, for posting that information. I am certain it will be a help to other parents in my husband's situation, and I hope it will also prove illuminating for grandparents who have, as you say, received misguided advice.

My personal assessment of this grandmother's motivations are much like yours. I have no illusions about the extent of her involvement when her daughter had custody: I believe that Grandma was very much the de facto mom, to the extent she was able when not actively battling her own daughter. In fact, there is ample reason to believe that when D's mother was with her previous boyfriend, the boyfriend's mom was also a significant mother figure to D. While my husband was fighting with every legal means he had to avoid being squeezed from the picture, we were both grateful that D had some mature adult looking out for her interests on that end.

I'll posit another category for your list: Grandmothers whose relationship with their children -- especially an only child -- has long been so contentious that they feel they've failed as a parent, and who seek now to redeem themselves by attempting to "parent" a grandchild.

I recognize (as D is already beginning to) that X is responsible for her own choices; however, I think at least some of X's shortcomings can be traced to having herself grown up without loving, consistent involvement and discipline from one if not both of her parents.