I 'Think', I Already Know the Answer to This, but...

[Ron1347]

What is the name of your state? Michigan/Kentucky

As some of you may already remember, my son (here in Michigan) has custody of his two boys (8 & 9 years of age). The boys' mother (who has resided in Kentucky a good many years now), has always had her standard visitation schedule, etc. The 8 year old, is wanting to go live with his mother permanently. The dad & mom have discussed it, and it appears they have come to the agreement to allow the 8 year old to do just that. However, the father says that he will NOT relinquish custody legally (as in, sign off custody fully, to the mother). But that he will write up and have notorized, a statement that she can have the 8 year old for 'one' school year, 'then', see what happens from there. And if the 8 year old might decide he wants to return to his dad at the end of that time (or, even prior to the end of that time), the 8 year old 'must' be allowed to do so. The mother states 'this', as 'her' dilemma, for not having full custody legally signed over to her: She says the problem is that, she 'needs' FULL CUSTODY, no strings, so that she can properly add the 8 year old to hers and her husband's medical insurance (the boys currently have medicaid here in Michigan). I believe there were a couple of other reasons she stated as well, but I can't remember what they were at the moment. The pretty much one and only fear that the father has is, that regardless what the mother 'promises', when, or if, the time came that the 8 year old did in fact decide he wanted to return to his dad to live, instead of staying on with his mother, that if the mother had full custody, she could deny the transfer back. She could refuse to honor the verbal agreement. She has been known to go back on her word a time or two in the past. Am I correct in thinking, that if son was to sign over full custody of the 8 year old, he would lose any authority of the 8 year old from that point on, and that the mother would have total control of any future possibilty of the 8 year old coming back if he were to change his mind? Thank you.

 

[stealth2]

The only way custody can legally be changed is by a judge. However, your son should be aware that a notarized "agreement" is useless. Once the year is coming to a close, Mom could easily file for a change in custody - and could very well get it. Dad won't be able to argue that she's unfit (unless she does something egregious in that year) as he voluntarily gave her custody.

And it is entirely likely that she cannot add the kid to her insurance w/o custody being given to her legally.

 

[Rushia]

What is the name of your state? Michigan/Kentucky

As some of you may already remember, my son (here in Michigan) has custody of his two boys (8 & 9 years of age). The boys' mother (who has resided in Kentucky a good many years now), has always had her standard visitation schedule, etc. The 8 year old, is wanting to go live with his mother permanently. The dad & mom have discussed it, and it appears they have come to the agreement to allow the 8 year old to do just that. However, the father says that he will NOT relinquish custody legally (as in, sign off custody fully, to the mother). But that he will write up and have notorized, a statement that she can have the 8 year old for 'one' school year, 'then', see what happens from there. And if the 8 year old might decide he wants to return to his dad at the end of that time (or, even prior to the end of that time), the 8 year old 'must' be allowed to do so. The mother states 'this', as 'her' dilemma, for not having full custody legally signed over to her: She says the problem is that, she 'needs' FULL CUSTODY, no strings, so that she can properly add the 8 year old to hers and her husband's medical insurance (the boys currently have medicaid here in Michigan). I believe there were a couple of other reasons she stated as well, but I can't remember what they were at the moment. The pretty much one and only fear that the father has is, that regardless what the mother 'promises', when, or if, the time came that the 8 year old did in fact decide he wanted to return to his dad to live, instead of staying on with his mother, that if the mother had full custody, she could deny the transfer back. She could refuse to honor the verbal agreement. She has been known to go back on her word a time or two in the past. Am I correct in thinking, that if son was to sign over full custody of the 8 year old, he would lose any authority of the 8 year old from that point on, and that the mother would have total control of any future possibilty of the 8 year old coming back if he were to change his mind? Thank you.

From what I have learned on here: If they write up this notorized statement, it will mean nothing. Unless a judge signes off on it, it's a worthless piece of paper. Here's what I see happening: Dad lets son go with the permission of the court and yes, there would be at least joint legal custody OR they don't bother to got to court, just send the son and at the end of one year mom takes dad to court for custody of the 8 year old and proves he has been living with her for X amount of time and she retains custody anyway.

Why does the 8 year old want to live with mom, and why are his parents allowing him to make such a decision?

 

[Rushia]

The only way custody can legally be changed is by a judge. However, your son should be aware that a notarized "agreement" is useless. Once the year is coming to a close, Mom could easily file for a change in custody - and could very well get it. Dad won't be able to argue that she's unfit (unless she does something egregious in that year) as he voluntarily gave her custody.

And it is entirely likely that she cannot add the kid to her insurance w/o custody being given to her legally.

Beat me to it stealth, but I am learning from you!!!

 

[stealth2]

The "why" is a very good question. And frankly, it's almost always a lousy idea to give kids this age the power of deciding where they're going to live. There's very much of a "grass is greener" mentality.

 

[Rushia]

The "why" is a very good question. And frankly, it's almost always a lousy idea to give kids this age the power of deciding where they're going to live. There's very much of a "grass is greener" mentality.

I know, sheesh, mine are 5 and 3 and already play this game, would I ever allow them to make such a decision, NO.

 

[Ron1347]

A little more depth to the story. From birth of 'both' grandboys, I have 'always' had an unbelievably excellent relationship and rapore with my two little buddies! There has virtually been 'nothing' that they haven't confided in me. Nothing that we haven't been able to discuss quite honestly and openly, until, the past few months. Communication between the boys and I (of private matters) has decreased I would have to say, by 75%, I think would be a fair guesstimation. There are reasons for that, and I know what they are.

My son divorced, got custody, remarried a woman with a boy my grand's age, then produced another grand between them. Without going into very lengthy detail, it is as obvious as the nose on your face that, my son's 9 year old is my son's absolute #1 favorite. His new little boy (4 years of age, very soon to be 5), is clearly my son's #2 favorite. Leaving the 8 year old being in 3rd place, and he is very well aware of it. He isn't feeling good about his position with his dad. He hasn't felt good about it for quite some time. He feels as if he no longer has a place within his present family unit. He feels that he doesn't belong, that he is an outsider, that he is a 3rd class citizen there. My son says there is no way he shows it nor treats the 8 year old any dofferently, but we all know that is BULL, right?!

The 8 year old has always had a greater attachment to his mother anyway. Far more so than the 9 year old. The 8 year old having always pretty much been mom's guy, and the 9 year old having always been dad's guy. In addition, my son and I don't get along, we rarely if ever see eye-to-eye on much of anything. We certainly don't see eye-to-eye on the raising his children! At this point, I myself am thinking along the lines that, my 8 year old little buddy will likely be much better off with his mother. That he will have a better home life, a better atmosphere, more the attention he needs and deserves, a greater feeling of being needed and wanted and loved. A pity it can't be that way with his dad, but, it isn't. The 8 year old has come to 'me', for moral support and backing. I've given it to him 100%. Just having that from me alone, seems to have put him in a better place mentally and emotionally. He wants to 'try' the, "grass is greener" scenario, and I'm thinking, shouldn't he [we] go for it?

I must say...I'm worried, I'm heartbroken, I'm confused, just as my little guy is. However...nothing said, nothing done, is going to change the way things stand with my son. I don't know how he does it with his other little boys but, he doesn't seem to know 'how' to make things right for his 8 year old. He has given up, he won't try. And I'll be honest with you, I have a HUGE resentment toward my son for it! It may not sound like my son and I get along visibly, but we do. It's all a front for benefit of everyone else of course. We have never been denied access and relationship with our little guys, no matter our differences. At least that's a plus.

Aside from with his gramma and I, 8 year old's social life, behavior both at home and in school, his grades, his attitutde, have all begun sliding into the toilet. He wants OUT!

Oops...speaking of the little devils, they are here. They are just coming back from Kentucky from spending their Spring Break with their mother, and she is dropping them off here with us for a couple of days before going on home to their dad. I have to go, but if needed, I will continue more of this story in a couple of days.

Again...Thank you all so much!

 

[Rushia]

Still, an 8 year old should not have this much "power" handed to him. He should not be allowed to make such decisions. Perhaps a much better route would be to put him in therapy and even so far as to suggest family therapy. So many brothers and sisters. I am not making light of this sir, and can understand your concern as my own two children have this same problem. They have an older sister thru their dad, each other, and now a new younger brother thru dad. My son is in therapy (for a different problem), and it has done him a world of good.

 

[stealth2]

I think that some counseling couldn't hurt. Mostly for that boneheaded son of yours! But anyway.....

Legally, your son needs to understand that he may well find that his middle boy will not come back from his mother's on a fulltime basis. And, of course, he needs to understand that will affect any support he currently gets.

I also think that what you've got is a pretty "normal" situation. It's not at all unusual for parents and kids to form different attachments for any different number of reasons. I would have to admit that I feel more of a "connection" with my eldest - he's my firstborn, he's very like me in looks and personality, we share many interests. Our relationship is very "easy". My younger one has always been a bit of an enigma to me - she's a girly-girl, I was a tomboy. She's ambivalent to sports, I love them. She's not a big reader, I devour books/magazines/newspapers - I'm an information junkie. She's organized, I'm not. We're literally at opposite ends of the spectrum. And she's bright enough to know both that fact, and that her brother and I are two peas in a pod. Now, unlike your son, I also recognize that and I work very hard to find areas of commonality for us to share. Where I can't find them, I become the one to move out of my comfort zone into hers and take her shopping, to girl-oriented movies, take up knitting and scrapbooking with her . And I make a point of sharing some of MY interests away from her brother. For example, when he's off with Scouts, I take her camping - just the two of us. I make a point of being involved with her class at school and volunteering for anything and everything they need. Long story short - I make sure she sees me making an effort at the things that are important to her, as much as I do for my son.

The difference is, however, that your son seems unwilling to make that effort. And if that's the case, the boy may well be better off with his mother. Hopefully, you're on good enough terms that she'll keep you as an active part of his life.

 

[casa]

The "why" is a very good question. And frankly, it's almost always a lousy idea to give kids this age the power of deciding where they're going to live. There's very much of a "grass is greener" mentality.

Not only that, but I believe it would be a mistake to separate these siblings- being so close in age and spending their life together.

 

[Smarty Panties]

The mom should be able to add the son to their insurance without having full custody on paper. Non custodial parents cover their children all the time. Never heard of an insurance company asking to see custody papers before adding a child to the policy.

 

[kidoday]

The mom should be able to add the son to their insurance without having full custody on paper. Non custodial parents cover their children all the time. Never heard of an insurance company asking to see custody papers before adding a child to the policy.

I was thinking the same thing Smarty. Heck I don't think Medicaid even asks for papers that show custody.

 

[LdiJ]

I was thinking the same thing Smarty. Heck I don't think Medicaid even asks for papers that show custody.

They do...and many regular insurance companies do too...when its employer plans. Remember the employers have complete "say" over who can or cannot be covered. Most wouldn't require custody...but some truly do.

 

[stealth2]

Mom would also need something to register the kid for school.

 

[Ron1347]

I think that some counseling couldn't hurt. Mostly for that boneheaded son of yours! But anyway.....

Legally, your son needs to understand that he may well find that his middle boy will not come back from his mother's on a fulltime basis. And, of course, he needs to understand that will affect any support he currently gets.

I also think that what you've got is a pretty "normal" situation. It's not at all unusual for parents and kids to form different attachments for any different number of reasons. I would have to admit that I feel more of a "connection" with my eldest - he's my firstborn, he's very like me in looks and personality, we share many interests. Our relationship is very "easy". My younger one has always been a bit of an enigma to me - she's a girly-girl, I was a tomboy. She's ambivalent to sports, I love them. She's not a big reader, I devour books/magazines/newspapers - I'm an information junkie. She's organized, I'm not. We're literally at opposite ends of the spectrum. And she's bright enough to know both that fact, and that her brother and I are two peas in a pod. Now, unlike your son, I also recognize that and I work very hard to find areas of commonality for us to share. Where I can't find them, I become the one to move out of my comfort zone into hers and take her shopping, to girl-oriented movies, take up knitting and scrapbooking with her . And I make a point of sharing some of MY interests away from her brother. For example, when he's off with Scouts, I take her camping - just the two of us. I make a point of being involved with her class at school and volunteering for anything and everything they need. Long story short - I make sure she sees me making an effort at the things that are important to her, as much as I do for my son.

The difference is, however, that your son seems unwilling to make that effort. And if that's the case, the boy may well be better off with his mother. Hopefully, you're on good enough terms that she'll keep you as an active part of his life.

I have a few minutes, as my grandboys are finishing up a late breakfast (sleepy-heads this morning), and we have a little time with them this afternoon before we must take them home to their dad. First would like to let you all know how much I appreciate the advice and insight!

I would LOVE that the boys received counseling. I have pushed and pushed son for 'years', to do just that for the boys, as well as 'Family Counseling'. However as you've said, son talks-the-talk, but doesn't otherwise pursue. 'Unwilling'? Oh yes! Just another one of the things that devide he and I. Counseling for that 'bone-headed son of mine'? OMG, I wish! For his current wife to! That just isn't going to happen though.

The mother and I seem to be on very excellent terms. She has been a bit devious in the past but, she and I have seemed to have even a better rapore now, and for the past near two years, than we ever did when she was married to my son. She and I talk tons by phone, by snail mail, by e-mail, by IM.

The 8 year old being given 'that power'? Hmm...I'm not so sure he really is. Is he? I mean, his wishes are being considered, and appears they may well be granted, but not without exhaustive thought by the adults involved. Or wait...is that a contradiction? Has it really been all that exhaustive? I'm wanting to 'think' it has, but now, you've got me wondering. Glad you're all here to throw these things at me! And I see exactly what you mean by ['Legally, your son needs to understand that he may well find that his middle boy will not come back from his mother's on a fulltime basis]. [And, of course, he needs to understand that will affect any support he currently gets'].<-We had already assumed that part, as would only be proper and fair of course.

Well, time to go and spend what's left of a beautiful day with our little guys before having to return them to their dad. Likely will have to make a toy store trip. lmbo Again, thak you all so much! Hope you all are having a great day!