IAAL, need insight

[Ukiah]

EDUCATION CODE
SECTION 44807


44807. Every teacher in the public schools shall hold pupils to a strict account for the conduct on the way to and from school, on the playgrounds, or during recess. A teacher, vice principal, principal, or any other certificated employee of a school district, shall not be subject to criminal prosecution or criminal penalties for the exercise during the performance of his duties, of all the same degree of physical control over a pupil that a parent would be privileged to exercise but which in no event shall exceed the amount of physical control reasonably necessary to maintain order, protect property, or protect the health and safety of pupils, or to maintain proper and appropriate conditions conducive to learning. The provisions of this section are in addition to and do not supersede the provisions of Section 49000.

IAAL ;

What does this mean? And if the “provisions” of this section are in addition to and not to supersede the provisions of Section 49000, what do Sections 49000 & 49001 mean?

49000. The Legislature finds and declares that the protection against corporal punishment, which extends to other citizens in other walks of life, should include children while they are under the control of the public schools. Children of school age are at the most vulnerable and impressionable period of their lives and it is wholly reasonable that the safeguards to the integrity and sanctity of their bodies should be, at this tender age, at least equal to that
afforded to other citizens.

49001. (a) For the purposes of this section "corporal punishment" means the willful infliction of, or willfully causing the infliction of, physical pain on a pupil. An amount of force that is reasonable and necessary for a person employed by or engaged in a public school to quell a disturbance threatening physical injury to persons or damage to property, for purposes of self-defense, or to obtain possession of weapons or other dangerous objects within the control of the pupil, is not and shall not be construed to be corporal punishment within the meaning and intent of this section. Physical pain or discomfort caused by athletic competition or other such recreational activity, voluntarily engaged in by the pupil, is not
and shall not be construed to be corporal punishment within the meaning and intent of this section.
(b) No person employed by or engaged in a public school shall inflict, or cause to be inflicted corporal punishment upon a pupil. Every resolution, bylaw, rule, ordinance, or other act or authority permitting or authorizing the infliction of corporal punishment upon a pupil attending a public school is void and unenforceable.


Under all three sections, does my child’s teacher have the legal right to “physically drag” (teacher’s words) my daughter out of the classroom while class is not in session (it happened at lunch time)?

To me what these state is that if my daughter was going to harm her self, another student, or property that the teacher was right to have used such force on my daughter. Which in fact there were no other students in the room. All my daughter wanted to do was look for some misplaced money.

Am I being too critical?

Thanks, Ukiah

 

[I AM ALWAYS LIABLE]

My response:

These are the "In Loco Parentes" laws ("Standing in the shoes of the Parents").

I don't know if you're being too critical, sensitive, or not. You make it sound so innocent; and, it probably was. A child looking for money in an empty classroom sounds very innocent. In fact, it's very innocuous. Something that certainly doesn't warrant grabbing a child's arm and dragging that child out the door.

However, I wasn't there, and I need more information about what else was happening, and what schedule the teacher had to meet, and whether your daughter may have been ignoring the teacher's direct orders and commands (some kids can do that real well). ("Mary, please leave the room" - (No response from child, still hunting around) "Mary, stop what you're doing and leave the room" (Still, no response from child) "Mary, if you don't leave right now, I'm going to get very upset with you" (Still no response, except now, "Mary" flips off the teacher) Teacher now comes storming down the aisle, grabs Mary by the arm and back of the pants, and throws Mary out the door. Teacher shuts door.

Of course, I agree, from the way you explain it, it sounds to me, on the surface, that too much force was being used. However, like I said, I don't have all the facts to make a value judgment.

I don't know if you already mentioned it, but did you have a parent / teacher conference yet ?

IAAL

 

[Ukiah]

This is what happened.....

My response:

These are the "In Loco Parentes" laws ("Standing in the shoes of the Parents").

I don't know if you're being too critical, sensitive, or not. You make it sound so innocent; and, it probably was. A child looking for money in an empty classroom sounds very innocent. In fact, it's very innocuous. Something that certainly doesn't warrant grabbing a child's arm and dragging that child out the door.

However, I wasn't there, and I need more information about what else was happening, and what schedule the teacher had to meet, and whether your daughter may have been ignoring the teacher's direct orders and commands (some kids can do that real well). ("Mary, please leave the room" - (No response from child, still hunting around) "Mary, stop what you're doing and leave the room" (Still, no response from child) "Mary, if you don't leave right now, I'm going to get very upset with you" (Still no response, except now, "Mary" flips off the teacher) Teacher now comes storming down the aisle, grabs Mary by the arm and back of the pants, and throws Mary out the door. Teacher shuts door.

Of course, I agree, from the way you explain it, it sounds to me, on the surface, that too much force was being used. However, like I said, I don't have all the facts to make a value judgment.

I don't know if you already mentioned it, but did you have a parent / teacher conference yet ?

IAAL

IAAL;
What happened was this:

I arrived to my daughter's school to watch her in the Christmas Program the school was having.... After her class was done performing, I followed the students back to the room, upon arriving at the door, one of her teachers came out and said "She threw a fit yesterday at lunchtime when she lost some money, I had to physically drag her out of the room" She also stated that "She (my child) got really upset when I tried to get her to leave, but she wanted to find the money" I asked her how long they looked for the money, she said only a few minutes, but by then my daughter was in tears. My daughter gets yelled at for everything at her father's residence; losing an earring, not bringing socks back from our house, yes, even spilt milk!

The teacher didn't have a meeting to go to (I asked). The teacher also told me that she didn't have the patience to wait (or help) my daughter look for her money.

What I think this all extends from is the fact that my daughter has daydreamed in class. There are 40 students, two teachers combine their classroom. When the teacher told me what my daughter was doing, I stated that she may be bored, having to wait for 1 teacher to go around and address the questions of 40 students makes for a long time for a child to wait to ask for help. Then the teacher started to say that maybe my daughter was A.D.D. because she is biting her nails. I refuse to believe that, as I have always had nervous energy, can't sit still (to this day), my daughter is the same way. I think the teacher is frustrated at her because she doesn't understand why my daughter is so emotional about things, and that's why she "physically dragged" her out of the room. Either way, I don't like anyone laying a hand on my child. She's been through hell, and still is going through it. My daughter is SO afraid to say anything about what's going on that she clams up, and would rather be spanked than say something. (I don't spank her)

I have been trying to get my daughter to tell her teachers why she gets so frustrated and cries. It's because she is afraid of what her father (more like step-mother) is going to do to her if they found out she lost money.

I did talk to the teacher a little, and have set up a conference for the 5th. BUT I need to know what these codes mean exactly, and if what the teacher did was wrong.

ALSO, if it is determined by the teacher that "mental suffering" has been done to my daughter (by her father/SM) is she required by section 11166 (education code) to report it, or is it at her discretion to report it.


EDUCATION CODE
SECTION 11166

11166. (b) Any child care custodian, health practitioner, employee of a child protective Agency, child visitation monitor, firefighter, animal control officer, of humane society officer who has knowledge of or who reasonably suspects that mental suffering has been inflicted upon a child or that his or her emotional well-being is endangered in any way, may report the known or suspected instance of child abuse to a child protective agency.


Sorry this is so long, I thought you needed a little more depth in an explaination to catch you up to date.

 

[Ukiah]

Good night

Just wanted to let you know, I'm going offline for the night. So Good night, I'll pick this up tomorrow. Thank you so very much in advance for your insight, IAAL.

Ukiah

 

[I AM ALWAYS LIABLE]

Re: This is what happened.....

My response:

These are the "In Loco Parentes" laws ("Standing in the shoes of the Parents").

I don't know if you're being too critical, sensitive, or not. You make it sound so innocent; and, it probably was. A child looking for money in an empty classroom sounds very innocent. In fact, it's very innocuous. Something that certainly doesn't warrant grabbing a child's arm and dragging that child out the door.

However, I wasn't there, and I need more information about what else was happening, and what schedule the teacher had to meet, and whether your daughter may have been ignoring the teacher's direct orders and commands (some kids can do that real well). ("Mary, please leave the room" - (No response from child, still hunting around) "Mary, stop what you're doing and leave the room" (Still, no response from child) "Mary, if you don't leave right now, I'm going to get very upset with you" (Still no response, except now, "Mary" flips off the teacher) Teacher now comes storming down the aisle, grabs Mary by the arm and back of the pants, and throws Mary out the door. Teacher shuts door.

Of course, I agree, from the way you explain it, it sounds to me, on the surface, that too much force was being used. However, like I said, I don't have all the facts to make a value judgment.

I don't know if you already mentioned it, but did you have a parent / teacher conference yet ?

IAAL

IAAL;
What happened was this:

I arrived to my daughter's school to watch her in the Christmas Program the school was having.... After her class was done performing, I followed the students back to the room, upon arriving at the door, one of her teachers came out and said "She threw a fit yesterday at lunchtime when she lost some money, I had to physically drag her out of the room" She also stated that "She (my child) got really upset when I tried to get her to leave, but she wanted to find the money" I asked her how long they looked for the money, she said only a few minutes, but by then my daughter was in tears. My daughter gets yelled at for everything at her father's residence; losing an earring, not bringing socks back from our house, yes, even spilt milk!

The teacher didn't have a meeting to go to (I asked). The teacher also told me that she didn't have the patience to wait (or help) my daughter look for her money.

What I think this all extends from is the fact that my daughter has daydreamed in class. There are 40 students, two teachers combine their classroom. When the teacher told me what my daughter was doing, I stated that she may be bored, having to wait for 1 teacher to go around and address the questions of 40 students makes for a long time for a child to wait to ask for help. Then the teacher started to say that maybe my daughter was A.D.D. because she is biting her nails. I refuse to believe that, as I have always had nervous energy, can't sit still (to this day), my daughter is the same way. I think the teacher is frustrated at her because she doesn't understand why my daughter is so emotional about things, and that's why she "physically dragged" her out of the room. Either way, I don't like anyone laying a hand on my child. She's been through hell, and still is going through it. My daughter is SO afraid to say anything about what's going on that she clams up, and would rather be spanked than say something. (I don't spank her)

I have been trying to get my daughter to tell her teachers why she gets so frustrated and cries. It's because she is afraid of what her father (more like step-mother) is going to do to her if they found out she lost money.

I did talk to the teacher a little, and have set up a conference for the 5th. BUT I need to know what these codes mean exactly, and if what the teacher did was wrong.

ALSO, if it is determined by the teacher that "mental suffering" has been done to my daughter (by her father/SM) is she required by section 11166 (education code) to report it, or is it at her discretion to report it.


EDUCATION CODE
SECTION 11166

11166. (b) Any child care custodian, health practitioner, employee of a child protective Agency, child visitation monitor, firefighter, animal control officer, of humane society officer who has knowledge of or who reasonably suspects that mental suffering has been inflicted upon a child or that his or her emotional well-being is endangered in any way, may report the known or suspected instance of child abuse to a child protective agency.


Sorry this is so long, I thought you needed a little more depth in an explaination to catch you up to date.

My response:

It would appear that the key phrase in 11166(b) is:

". . . may report the . . . child abuse".

"May" is not mandatory; rather, it is discretionary and purposefully so. Not everyone is qualified to identify the subtlties of such abuse, and it may require an "overt" act before such person would "report" an instance of abuse.

Now, from your writing, I cannot tell if your daughter is suffering from abuse. It doesn't appear to me that she is, but then again, I can only go by your writing. She may be overly sensitive or is actually experiencing overt acts upon her - - I don't know. Only you know your daughter.

Parents frequently become upset with their children, and teachers frequently have to use methods to "keep order".

Does it take welts ? Does it require the skin to be broken ? Does it require the child to cry before "abuse" can be accused ?

Only you, as a parent, can answer these questions because only you know your daughter.

However, keep in mind that when you go to your parent / teacher meeting, that the teacher "stands in your shoes" as a parent, and can, by law, use reasonable methods of corporal punishment or corporal methods to require a child to act as that child should, and to maintain order and proper discipline.

So, unless there's some "off the wall" methods being utilized on your daughter, don't go nutso on the the teacher. The teacher, from what you've written, appears to be well within the law by grabbing your daughter's arm to get her out of the classroom - - when your daughter ignores oral commands and instructions.

That's my two cents worth.

IAAL

 

[Ukiah]

Re: Re: This is what happened.....

Thanks IAAL
I wanted to make sure that I had read those laws right. I understand that a teacher has to do certain things to "keep control" of the classroom.

I didn't want to quote any laws wrong! Our meeting is to talk about why my daughter is like this, and come to some kind of compromise to make both of them feel better towards each other. We will also be talking about homework that doesn't get done, when someone is supposed to be sitting with her. Communication problems, and much more.

Thank you, thank you, thank you! I feel better knowing this.