Kids say they don't have to visit

[ProSeDadinMD]

Let me just say this about kids choosing...

Little Miss Pro Se knows, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that she has a choice in every action she takes.

She also knows that when I, or The Ex, tell and/or ask her to do something, she has the choice of doing it, or not doing it and facing the consequences of that decision. That will change when she is legally responsible for the decisions she makes, as in when she turns 18.

 

[mommyof4]

May I suggest to everyone that they check out this poster's history? This is the same woman who is searching for any and every avenue to make sure Dad 'gets what he deserves'.

I understand that there is a court order and that the order must be followed to the letter. However, I also can understand the fact that Mom (OP) is adding fuel the fire of her kids' lack of respect and refusal to have any more to do with her than the bare minimum.

 

[wileybunch]

...and "maybe" he doesnt choose to call his dad since his dad has been a drunken, sleep-all-day, verbally abusive father to him for over 10 years and he is glad we moved 2500 miles away from him so that he doesnt need to be subjected to his ranting and raving every phone call.

Yeah but .... what's your child's excuse for how he treats YOU? Have you been a drunken sleep all day, etc. Mom?

 

[wileybunch]

Or *maybe* your kids haven't been taught that they don't always get to choose everything. There is a middle ground. My son is 17, and frankly - he has no choice about attending some of his sister's events. And vice-versa. We're family, and we support each other. While he may not always think of it on his own, a "hey - give Dad a call" has him pick up the phone and call. But I guess you prefer to have a spoiled brat.

Amen. DH's 18yo senior-in-high-school son has been told by his mom he can do as he pleases b/c she liked it when it was directed at Dad, but now he really does pick and choose a lot of things. He hasn't attended a single one of his 13yo sister's soccer games in the past year that I can think of (she plays 3 seasons/year). This floors me. My kids don't have a choice to sit out every single one of their siblings games or activities like that. Family unity doesn't always come naturally, there is a role for parents in there.

 

[spider14]

May I suggest to everyone that they check out this poster's history? This is the same woman who is searching for any and every avenue to make sure Dad 'gets what he deserves'.

I understand that there is a court order and that the order must be followed to the letter. However, I also can understand the fact that Mom (OP) is adding fuel the fire of her kids' lack of respect and refusal to have any more to do with her than the bare minimum.

How non-productive and with the kids stuck in the middle of a crap situation!

Not too late for Mom to just stop with the ex, and make the most of the time she is entitled to spend with the kids. Try to rebuild her relationship with the kids and leave the rest of it alone.

 

[WillingToFight]

Why Mom doesn't just say "Get in the Car"

Thanks to all who responded with helpful and some... not so helpful posts to my thread. I'm glad I was able to provide a platform for a sparring match for some of you.

With respect to MY situation, the court order says I am entitled to visits every Sunday from 1 - 7pm. There is a new order that has not been recorded yet that says I am entitled to have visits EOW from Saturday 5pm to Sunday evening (the return time is not etched in stone.)

The order also states that the kids WILL attend family counseling and that EX is to make the children available. I make four appointments at a time; once/week and send ex the schedule via email.

I understand that the kids may think it's boring at my home. It's not near their school, etc. However, my husband and I (or many times, just myself) typically have entertainment lined up; either an outing to the beach, hiking, movie - something. Before the disruption last April, that was nearly always the case on the weekends the kids were with me and my husband.

The reason why I don't just go to ex's house and tell the kids to get in the car is that I don't want to create a scene and make matters worse. The kids are at an age where I physically cannot force them to do anything. With ex towering over the situation, he most likely would call police if I suggested anything that was "forceful." He's already threatened to file a RO on me for sending him text messages about the kids' schedules.

The kids have been told that they don't have to visit if they don't want to. And the bit about the "restaurant of choice" was a bone my attorney asked for, just to get me more time. Her intent was so that the visits would be something the kids looked forward to.

My friends were at the court house as witnesses. They have all spent immeasurable time with me and my children together and have seen how I am as a mother and the relationship I HAD before this situation ensued in court. It was my understanding that the kids would NOT be at the court house, but their attorney brought them in because she was miffed that MY attorney filed a motion to disallow hearsay. She was assigned as their attorney (their mouthpiece) but kept injecting her own personal feelings in her testimony. She glided on the edge of behaving like a Guardian ad Litem, but never did an investigation.

I have confirmed with the family psychologist that one of the primary reasons the kids are so resolute about protecting their position is because they don't want to change schools (which they'd most likely have to do if they moved back with me.) However, another BIG factor is that they feel a need to protect dad, as dad is having some major issues right now. He is unemployed, in bankruptcy, about to be foreclosed and has no one else in his life besides his parents. The kids feel I can handle things better in general so they are evening the scale, so to speak.

Admittedly, another problem between me and the kids has been my hatred for their father. I have worked very hard to refrain from even mentioning him when my children are around and they have acknowledged this through communication with their attorney. They have each said that I have not said a bad word about their father in the past year and agree that I have worked very hard at repairing the relationship. Unfortunately, there seems to be nothing I can do that's good enough at this point to motivate the children towards reunification. Their own attorney felt that my daughter was making something from nothing with respect to some of the situations my daughter has conveyed. The attorney even tried to suggest that the situation(s) didn't appear to have any meaning or ties, but my daughter was convinced there was something negative.

If I give up now, I just seal the deal (which is I'm sure Dad's goal). If I continue fighting the kids over visitation, I confirm their desire to resist.

And by the way... for those of you who don't live in Oregon, I can tell you through this experience that the courts DO listen to what the kids want when they're teens. Once you are divorced and in the family court system, your children belong to the state and you no longer have the privilege of remaining the authority in their children's lives.

 

[ProSeDadinMD]

The reason why I don't just go to ex's house and tell the kids to get in the car is that I don't want to create a scene and make matters worse. The kids are at an age where I physically cannot force them to do anything...

It’s easier to give up on seeing your kids than to “create a scene”? And a PARENT really shouldn’t have to resort to getting physical to get their own kids to do something.

I have confirmed with the family psychologist that one of the primary reasons the kids are so resolute about protecting their position is because they don't want to change schools (which they'd most likely have to do if they moved back with me.) However, another BIG factor is that they feel a need to protect dad, as dad is having some major issues right now. He is unemployed, in bankruptcy, and has no one else in his life besides his parents. The kids feel I can handle things better in general so they are evening the scale, so to speak. .

Which one of you gave them the feeling that they have the power to “even the scale”? They’re kids for crying out loud…

And by the way... for those of you who don't live in Oregon, I can tell you through this experience that the courts DO listen to what the kids want when they're teens. Once you are divorced and in the family court system, your children belong to the state and you no longer have the privilege of remaining the authority in their children's lives.

Mommyof4, I think it’s more like she’s doing any/everything to be a martyr…

 

[WillingToFight]

It’s easier to give up on seeing your kids than to “create a scene”?

By "scene" I'm talking about a scene with their father. I am EXTREMELY frightened of him and had to file a RO on him in the past. If I show up at the house and say "Get in the car" and the kids say I don't want to and I insist - what do you think will happen between me and their father? Given that everyone is still represented by an attorney, I'll be the one they point fingers at for making a scene unnecessarily.

And a PARENT really shouldn’t have to resort to getting physical to get their own kids to do something.

This was a figure of speach. I never have been physical with my children before, other than to lift them as babies into their car seat and strap them in.

Which one of you gave them the feeling that they have the power to “even the scale”? They’re kids for crying out loud…

Dad and their attorney gave them the power. The kids told their attorney that they worry for their dad - that he'll go back to using drugs, that he can't find work or that he has nothing if they're taken away from him.

Mommyof4, I think it’s more like she’s doing any/everything to be a martyr…

This is neither helpful, nor advice.

 

[wileybunch]

By "scene" I'm talking about a scene with their father. I am EXTREMELY frightened of him and had to file a RO on him in the past. If I show up at the house and say "Get in the car" and the kids say I don't want to and I insist - what do you think will happen between me and their father? Given that everyone is still represented by an attorney, I'll be the one they point fingers at for making a scene unnecessarily.

I don't know why you are so frightened of Dad. Is it because you are afraid he'll be physical with you? And, yet you're afraid Dad would call the police on YOU? I'm not following your logic. If you don't show up for visitation, you willingly gave it up. If you show up and Dad interferes directly (ie. a show of force against you) or doesn't make the kids available for visitation, you file for contempt. Maybe you can explain why you have a "paralyzing" sort of fear because I'm not following that logic.

 

[WillingToFight]

I don't know why you are so frightened of Dad. Is it because you are afraid he'll be physical with you? And, yet you're afraid Dad would call the police on YOU? I'm not following your logic. If you don't show up for visitation, you willingly gave it up. If you show up and Dad interferes directly (ie. a show of force against you) or doesn't make the kids available for visitation, you file for contempt. Maybe you can explain why you have a "paralyzing" sort of fear because I'm not following that logic.

Ex was physically and emotionally abusive throughout marriage. The only reason I stipulated to joint custody at the time of dissolution was because I was afraid of what he would do if I took sole custody. I also weighed out what it would do to the kids to have reduced parenting time. For the most part, over the years, we managed to dodge each other and work with the 50/50 arrangement. However, any time Ex did not get his way, he would threaten to take the kids, blah blah blah.

Yes - I'm afraid ex will call the police on me. He has been operating like a free agent and seems to think he can get away with what ever he wants. He has already threatened to fild a RO on me for contacting him for non-emergencies. (I'd sent a message earlier, telling him I thought he was lower than low for taking the arrears, rather than using it for his daughter's braces). It was completely non-threatening and used no foul language. Later I sent a message asking him to reschedule our daughter's doctor appointment - that's when he threatened to file a RO. I walk on eggshells because he seems to have a talent for making people believe his lies.

Ex has tried to intimidate my present husband, but was unsuccessful. However... there have been a number of times ex has made threats to me over the phone and caused damage to my car that continue to make me fearful of him. The RO was enforced because ex brandished a gun during an argument we had while still married. Even though that gun was supposed to have been removed, I've recently confirmed through the county that it was not (through an oversight of the county sheriff's office). He also confirmed in deposition that he still owns the gun.

Ex is under extremely disasterous conditions at this point and his own attorney commented that I'll probably get the kids back sometime anyway (he thinks ex will self-destruct). This information was conveyed by my attorney (that's how I know.)

So... getting back to your advice - thank you. I will puff my chest out and be brave and show up... and document any adverse behavior *when it happens (and it will - I guarantee it.)

I will add this to my "story." When I first met my previous attorney over a year ago, as I told him of ex's and my history, I could see the disbelief overcome his face. As time went on, the disbelief evaporated because my attorney saw the exact pattern I predicted - like I was a psychic! I've known this man for 30 years. I know what he's capable of and I know he is a ticking time bomb. He will not last much longer under this pressure (that he's created all by himself.)

 

[summerdawn]

Mom says "Get in the car!" Easy peasy.

Why aren't you more concerned about why they don't want to see you in the first place?

Why were your "friends" at the courthouse for your hearing? It's not a spectator sport...

I agree-why were "friends" not only at the courthouse, but at the movies as well? how about some one on one time with the kids without all the "friends?"

 

[summerdawn]

Thanks to all who responded with helpful and some... not so helpful posts to my thread. I'm glad I was able to provide a platform for a sparring match for some of you.

With respect to MY situation, the court order says I am entitled to visits every Sunday from 1 - 7pm. There is a new order that has not been recorded yet that says I am entitled to have visits EOW from Saturday 5pm to Sunday evening (the return time is not etched in stone.)

The order also states that the kids WILL attend family counseling and that EX is to make the children available. I make four appointments at a time; once/week and send ex the schedule via email.

I understand that the kids may think it's boring at my home. It's not near their school, etc. However, my husband and I (or many times, just myself) typically have entertainment lined up; either an outing to the beach, hiking, movie - something. Before the disruption last April, that was nearly always the case on the weekends the kids were with me and my husband.

The reason why I don't just go to ex's house and tell the kids to get in the car is that I don't want to create a scene and make matters worse. The kids are at an age where I physically cannot force them to do anything. With ex towering over the situation, he most likely would call police if I suggested anything that was "forceful." He's already threatened to file a RO on me for sending him text messages about the kids' schedules.

The kids have been told that they don't have to visit if they don't want to. And the bit about the "restaurant of choice" was a bone my attorney asked for, just to get me more time. Her intent was so that the visits would be something the kids looked forward to.
My friends were at the court house as witnesses. They have all spent immeasurable time with me and my children together and have seen how I am as a mother and the relationship I HAD before this situation ensued in court. It was my understanding that the kids would NOT be at the court house, but their attorney brought them in because she was miffed that MY attorney filed a motion to disallow hearsay. She was assigned as their attorney (their mouthpiece) but kept injecting her own personal feelings in her testimony. She glided on the edge of behaving like a Guardian ad Litem, but never did an investigation.

I have confirmed with the family psychologist that one of the primary reasons the kids are so resolute about protecting their position is because they don't want to change schools (which they'd most likely have to do if they moved back with me.) However, another BIG factor is that they feel a need to protect dad, as dad is having some major issues right now. He is unemployed, in bankruptcy, about to be foreclosed and has no one else in his life besides his parents. The kids feel I can handle things better in general so they are evening the scale, so to speak.

Admittedly, another problem between me and the kids has been my hatred for their father. I have worked very hard to refrain from even mentioning him when my children are around and they have acknowledged this through communication with their attorney. They have each said that I have not said a bad word about their father in the past year and agree that I have worked very hard at repairing the relationship. Unfortunately, there seems to be nothing I can do that's good enough at this point to motivate the children towards reunification. Their own attorney felt that my daughter was making something from nothing with respect to some of the situations my daughter has conveyed. The attorney even tried to suggest that the situation(s) didn't appear to have any meaning or ties, but my daughter was convinced there was something negative.

If I give up now, I just seal the deal (which is I'm sure Dad's goal). If I continue fighting the kids over visitation, I confirm their desire to resist.

And by the way... for those of you who don't live in Oregon, I can tell you through this experience that the courts DO listen to what the kids want when they're teens. Once you are divorced and in the family court system, your children belong to the state and you no longer have the privilege of remaining the authority in their children's lives.

Why don't you take them home and have them participate in making dinner with you? It would probably be really fun! My kids love helping me in the kitchen.

 

[WillingToFight]

I agre-why were "friends" not only at t courthouse, but at the movies as well? how about some one on one time with the kids without all the "friends?"

I've explained the friends at the courthouse before - they were there as witnesses. I did NOT know the kids would be brought by their attorney to the hearing.

As for the friends being at the theater - it was a spur of the moment invitation BY my friends and the kids wanted to go. These "friends" have been like family to both myself and my children. I have known them throughout childhood and and adulthood and the kids have come to know these friends and their children like an extended family. The tension was unexpected by everyone. I think since the kids hadn't seen the friends in such a long time, they (mostly my daughter) expected a more warm and fuzzy reception.

Most times that my kids are with me now, my husband leaves to do something on his own so we CAN have one-on-one time. There've also been times where my son has ASKED to go hiking with my husband. The mid-week dinners are also times for one-on-one time. My attorney has tried to set up a schedule that puts me in the position to be "DisneyLand Mom" but I'm having a difficult time getting the plan into place.

 

[WillingToFight]

Why don't you take them home and have them participate in making dinner with you? It would probably be really fun! My kids love helping me in the kitchen.

I do this too. My daughter likes it but my son wants to finish his piece as soon as possible.

I am trying REALLY HARD. I call and ask to take them ice skating, to Starbucks, movie - whatever. I just keep getting told "I don't feel like it."

 

[summerdawn]

I've explained the friends at the courthouse before - they were there as witnesses. I did NOT know the kids would be brought by their attorney to the hearing.

As for the friends being at the theater - it was a spur of the moment invitation BY my friends and the kids wanted to go. These "friends" have been like family to both myself and my children. I have known them throughout childhood and and adulthood and the kids have come to know these friends and their children like an extended family. The tension was unexpected by everyone. I think since the kids hadn't seen the friends in such a long time, they (mostly my daughter) expected a more warm and fuzzy reception.

Most times that my kids are with me now, my husband leaves to do something on his own so we CAN have one-on-one time. There've also been times where my son has ASKED to go hiking with my husband. The mid-week dinners are also times for one-on-one time. My attorney has tried to set up a schedule that puts me in the position to be "DisneyLand Mom" but I'm having a difficult time getting the plan into place.

But why would you want to be "Disneyland mom"? How are your children supposed to think of your home as their home as well if you are always taking them out? Why not do some relaxing things with them at home like movie or game night, baking, stuff like that? Going out is fun, but kids really like the home life type stuff too. You want them to remember you as the nurturing providing a comfy place type mom so that when they get older they will want to come back home to visit and be comforted by mom... Make them feel comfortable in your home and they may want to come over a bit more maybe?