Need advice on what to include in new custody order

[lisars]

What is the name of your state? PA

After several years, I have decided to file for court ordered custody and support. Hoping that we can come up with an agreement that works for both myself and my ex, I would like to know of some of the items that should possibly be included that aren't always thought of at first, and might require modification or clarification down the road. I'm hoping we can work this out between ourselves and have what we decide filed with the court.

I've already spoken with an attorney and will retain his services, but would like to come up with a good head start as to what I should approach the ex with. He now has the kids EOW, 4 weeks during the summer, the standard stuff. But I want to know how specific can you get? What's the standard notification time for summer vacation visitation? We now are going with 30 days. But he likes to wait until that 30th day, which sometimes can screw up our plans. Do I have to allow the dates he picks, in case of other plans?

The reason I've decided to finally file is that he has been telling them lately that they are old enough to decide where to live, and it's his turn, that I've had them long enough. I have tried to explain to the oldest that it doesn't work that way. She's 14 and a judge would take her wishes into account, but it's not like she gets to up and move just because we have been arguing lately. And because "Daddy said he's willing to go to court and fight you for me." This all comes on the heels of his telling them repeatedly how broke he is. My thought is that he's trying to convince them ( or at least the oldest) to move in with him so that he won't have to pay support.

I want to have included that he shall not be allowed to try to entice the kids into wanting to come and live with him. He's using the fact that our oldest and I lately have been having the issues that most girls and their Moms have. The fact that Dad doesn't make her do her homework, allows boys over, and has less rules (and expectations) makes his house look like Disney World.

What should be some of the inclusions be? Can something as trivial as school clothes costs be addressed? Extra curricular activities? Or is his support check supposed to cover these expenses also? Should I try to get him to agree to paying part of post-secondary schooling? I know he can't be made to, but what the heck he might do it. Or are these things covered in a support agreement?

I know there are things that I will forget to have addressed. Yes, that's what an attorney is for, but having someone who's been through this will sometimes think of things that I don't. And I want as many of the bases covered, going into this, as possible. He's going to be livid, but trying to agree between the two of us is no longer working. I'm tired of trying to be nice.What is the name of your state?What is the name of your state?What is the name of your state?

 

[tigger22472]

What is the name of your state? PA
He now has the kids EOW, 4 weeks during the summer, the standard stuff.
Is this court ordered or just an agreement? Are you talking an original order or a modification?

But I want to know how specific can you get? What's the standard notification time for summer vacation visitation? We now are going with 30 days. But he likes to wait until that 30th day, which sometimes can screw up our plans. Do I have to allow the dates he picks, in case of other plans?

It just depends. For instance say he has til May 1st to tell you when he plans to exercise his days. He has until May 1st. If you have already made plans on those days, your plans change. Only way around that is to discuss it with dad beforehand.

The reason I've decided to finally file is that he has been telling them lately that they are old enough to decide where to live, and it's his turn, that I've had them long enough.

That is not true but how old are all the kids?

I have tried to explain to the oldest that it doesn't work that way. She's 14 and a judge would take her wishes into account, but it's not like she gets to up and move just because we have been arguing lately. And because "Daddy said he's willing to go to court and fight you for me." This all comes on the heels of his telling them repeatedly how broke he is. My thought is that he's trying to convince them ( or at least the oldest) to move in with him so that he won't have to pay support.

You are correct that they do not decide where to live but he has every right to fight you and seeing as there's not been any orders it seems, the fact he's an active part in their lives, and you don't seem to have anything to prove him to be unfit can weigh heavily on things.

I want to have included that he shall not be allowed to try to entice the kids into wanting to come and live with him.

It can be put in but likely won't be enforced.

He's using the fact that our oldest and I lately have been having the issues that most girls and their Moms have. The fact that Dad doesn't make her do her homework, allows boys over, and has less rules (and expectations) makes his house look like Disney World.


That is common on all angles

What should be some of the inclusions be? Can something as trivial as school clothes costs be addressed? Extra curricular activities? Or is his support check supposed to cover these expenses also?

Most of the time yes school clothes are covered by support. Extra curricular's are sometimes added

Should I try to get him to agree to paying part of post-secondary schooling?

First, I am probably the wrong person to ask that question to as I am of the belief that to force a parent to pay for college is unconstitutional. I cannot tell you how PA judges or case law looks at it. However, you are welcome to try and depending on the judge if you will get it. The children being older may hinder this.

I know he can't be made to, but what the heck he might do it. Or are these things covered in a support agreement?


Some are, some aren't

I know there are things that I will forget to have addressed. Yes, that's what an attorney is for, but having someone who's been through this will sometimes think of things that I don't. And I want as many of the bases covered, going into this, as possible. He's going to be livid, but trying to agree between the two of us is no longer working. I'm tired of trying to be nice.What is the name of your state?What is the name of your state?What is the name of your state?

How long has the situation been the way that it has? That may hinder you. You have every right to file for child support, just as he has every right to file for visitation and/or custody of any of the children, even if it's JUST the oldest. No one here can tell you how it will turn out. Don't expect your children to be allowed to or expect them to testify against their father about things that have been said to them by him.

 

[NotSoNew]

sample parenting plans for ideas of what to include:

http://www.deltabravo.net/custody/articles.php

select drop down menu from "Parenting Plan Articles"

review them all.

 

[lisars]

No, there has never been a court order, this has been an agreement between the two of us. This has been going on since our divorce in 2000. I had thought we had a court order, and went to an attorney a couple of years ago to find out about modifying it and was told there was no court order for either visitation or support. Ex's attorney apparently forgot to file paperwork or whatever, I'm not sure.

The problem with vacation time is that he has to put in for his vacation in January. First come, first served. He won't tell me until the last possible time though. The kids have missed family reunions and the like because his argument is he doesn't have to notify me until 30 days so that's when he does. And the vacation time he chooses will just happen to be the next day. I am aware he has the right to do this, but it stinks when he knows months in advance and refuses to tell me. He started this past summer taking them his entire allotted time, so 4 weeks split up over the summer doesn't allow much of a window to fit vacation plans in for us. Can I have it worded so that he has to take two weeks between certain dates and two weeks between others? Just so my husband can plan his vacation early enough, and know that the girls can spend it with us?

The girls are 10 and 14. The youngest told her sister that she will never go live with him. He's by no stretch unfit, just a parent who wants to be a friend instead of a parent. There was a time right after the divorce, when he would show up drunk to pick the kids up at my parents', took them to bars ( not restaurant/bar) until after midnight, but not anymore. Of course I don't find these thing out for months.

In PA you cannot make a parent ,irregardless of whether the parents are still married or divorced, pay for college expenses once the child is 18. He's said in the past he would be willing to help, I just want him to not be able to change his mind at the last minute if he doesn't approve of the scholl, major, etc...

I would never entertain the idea of them testifying against him. They love him faults and all. He's saying these things to win points with the oldest, when push comes to shove he'll back off.

Are medical, dental, etc. issues covered in custody or support?

 

[tigger22472]

No, there has never been a court order, this has been an agreement between the two of us. This has been going on since our divorce in 2000. I had thought we had a court order, and went to an attorney a couple of years ago to find out about modifying it and was told there was no court order for either visitation or support. Ex's attorney apparently forgot to file paperwork or whatever, I'm not sure.


That could work for or against you. The fact is that what you were doing was believed to have been in the orders. When you were made aware that they were not in the order did you inform your ex?

The problem with vacation time is that he has to put in for his vacation in January. First come, first served. He won't tell me until the last possible time though. The kids have missed family reunions and the like because his argument is he doesn't have to notify me until 30 days so that's when he does.

That happens in divorced families. He can be given a time to notify you by, which he has now and obviously abiding by it.

And the vacation time he chooses will just happen to be the next day.

How is this when he's giving you 30 days notice?

I am aware he has the right to do this, but it stinks when he knows months in advance and refuses to tell me.

He doesn't have to as it could be subject to change

He started this past summer taking them his entire allotted time, so 4 weeks split up over the summer doesn't allow much of a window to fit vacation plans in for us. Can I have it worded so that he has to take two weeks between certain dates and two weeks between others?

Maybe, maybe not. He's allowed 4 weeks and that's what he's allowed to take. Most judges allow them to be split any way possible by the week. Again this is just part of being divorced.

Just so my husband can plan his vacation early enough, and know that the girls can spend it with us?

The judge may or may not take that into consideration. The fact you have the children primarily throughout the year with weeks of uninteruption does matter. You can ask that each parent be given the right to 2 weeks of uninterupted time (meaning no visitation to the other parent) with you giving notice to HIM as to when you plan to do so in order to plan a vacation but that's up to the judge to grant it.


The girls are 10 and 14. The youngest told her sister that she will never go live with him. He's by no stretch unfit, just a parent who wants to be a friend instead of a parent. There was a time right after the divorce, when he would show up drunk to pick the kids up at my parents', took them to bars ( not restaurant/bar) until after midnight, but not anymore. Of course I don't find these thing out for months.


And you won't be able to use this at all

In PA you cannot make a parent ,irregardless of whether the parents are still married or divorced, pay for college expenses once the child is 18. He's said in the past he would be willing to help, I just want him to not be able to change his mind at the last minute if he doesn't approve of the scholl, major, etc...

He would be a fool to put it in the order. Finances change and he would have no idea where he will be at when the children are of age.

I would never entertain the idea of them testifying against him. They love him faults and all. He's saying these things to win points with the oldest, when push comes to shove he'll back off.

Maybe he will, maybe he won't

Are medical, dental, etc. issues covered in custody or support?

Medical is usually separate and he would likely be ordered to cover them if it is reasonable to do so through his employer, then the uninsured would be divided between the two of you, generally the parent not providing insurance get more of the percentage of uninsured things. Also I am not sure how PA figures in their support but in my state the fact that a parent is paying insurance is figured into the support, meaning they pay less support because they are providing insurance.

Where you are likely to have an issue is that you have followed this schedule for several years believing it was what was ordered, whether it was or not. You are not really going to get him to stop talking to your oldest about living with him. By your own account he's not unfit so you may need to be open to the fact that if she were to live with him that it may not be a bad thing. If there was an order I would suggest testing the waters but seeing as there isn't you don't want to do that yet as it would give him leverage to SURELY get full custody of that child.

Something else that can figure into that is the relationship between your two children. If they are close then that will help you, if they aren't it could work for him.

 

[LdiJ]

You haven't really stated how he is scheduling his time. However if he is breaking it up into less than one week blocks you may be able to do something to get it modified....or you may be able to get things order so that he has to notify you 30 days before summer vacation starts, rather than 30 days before each week he wants. You might even be able to get it extended to 60 days before summer starts.

If he is waiting to notify you 30 days before each week of his 4 weeks starts, then I can certainly understand how that makes things difficult for you, and a judge would as well....particularly if he is combining the weeks with regularly scheduled weekends....by doing that I can see how he could effectively make it difficult to impossible for you to have a vacation with the kids.

My suggestion is that you take it back to court for modification, require that he notify you of ALL of his summer time either 30-60 days before summer starts, and that you as the judge to order that you get an uninterrupted two week block so that you can plan a vacation with the kids...and that you get to notify HIM of that block before he gets to notify you of his time...Or, get the judge to set that two week block for you in advance, so that you have the same two week block every summer.

 

[lisars]

Thanks, NotSoNew for the deltabravo recommendation. There was one point that had I hadn't considered. He uses our oldest as his messenger after being asked and told not to. She forgets, or gets things confused. And it's not her job to relay his messages to me. Perfect example was last weekend. He came to pick them up Friday and when leaving said, "Bye, see you Monday." Not Sunday. He decided to keep them another day to make up for a day he won't have them in a couple of weeks. He told our daugther to tell me. She did not. But I can't be the witch and say "No" because he planned to take them along with him and his girlfriend to her families big holiday cookout. He told them all of this beforehand, and as usual she didn't remember. He's been told if he doesn't inform or ask me directly, all further requests, messages, etc. will be treated as if I never heard anything. That's one thing I'll surely use.

Tigger, when I walked out of that attorney's office I called the ex before I even got into the car to let him know we had no official orders. We decided to try and not get a court involved (his request).Things were fine for awhile. My husband and I moved back home so that they could be closer to him and all of our families, it was like all the decisions made went out the window. He expects alot of consessions without reciprosity. He wanted his girlfriend to take them shopping, I'd never met her, but the girls seemed to like her so I said o.k. She picked them up (here, on my weekend) said they'd be back in a couple of hours. Seven and a half hours later, no kids, no phone call. After four I started calling. He wasn't answering his phones, dumb me forgot to get her cell. Finally, he answers, they're all at his house and by the way, he wants them to stay. I say either have them home in 10 minutes or I'll be there in 20. And he couldn't understand why I said no to the next request to go shopping on my time. I know there's no relevance, but this is what I deal with. He's not unfit, just self-centered, inconsiderate, and manipulative.

The 30 day notice thing was a one time deal. What happened was he "forgot "to tell me earlier, but had already made plans to take the girls to the beach. They knew all about it, but he never told them when. Maybe I shouldn't have caved, but I couldn't break my kids' hearts and not let them go when they were so looking forward to it. That's his usual MO. He's Disney World and I'm summer school. Which he pulled her out of during his week in the summer, because he was going to tutor her on his own. Never happened. And yes, he had agreed that she would go, there was no issue with it until she went to his house. By the time I found out, and she was home,session was almost over and principal said she'd have been too far behind to return. So much for consequences for her actions. That's the kind of harm that would happen if she were to live there. And that her sister would "never speak to her again if she went to live with Daddy". They are extremely close, always have been.

Medical coverage is provided by my husband. And dental and vision. Truthfully I don't mind ex not having coverage, his is lousy, my husband's is the best I've heard of since the coal miner's ins. my Dad had when we were little. But, in the event of unreimbursed expenses, he pays 50%. According to the PA support calculator, he will have to pay more if he doesn't cover them. Would probably still be less than he would have to pay for family coverage vs. him only.

The idea about picking a certain block of the summer for our set time was a good one. I'll have to remember that one. We'll see how this weekend goes. They told me at Domestic Realtions he may get the support request or whatever it's called tomorrow. I'm glad the kids won't be there. He's going to have a fit. So I figure I'll kill two birds with one stone and let him know about me filing for custody. Get all that anger at me at once. Wish me luck.