Need opinions

[jjr85]

What is the name of your state? Illinois

This just occured last night: Gurnee Mills Outlet Mall in Gurnee, IL

Me and a shipmate were exiting the mall thru SEARS which is connected. My friend needed to use the restroom and so I point to it and off he goes. As soon as he enters the restroom a black young male goes to the back as well as if to surveillance him or something. By the way I was holding his bags waiting and at the sametime observing whats going on and eventually what happened.
As my friend exits the restroom the same guy comes out the back to follow us. We joke all the time so we make funny comments to each other about what happened, I turned around and the guy noticed we had caught on to him and so he falls back. That wasn't the end....
As we approach my car, someone shouts "excuse me can you guys come here for a second!" we turn around and its this guy that doesn't even look like he works there asking to check my friend's bag.He said "the alarm went off back there and so I gotta check your bags". We was like thats funny, because we didn't hear nothing!
I was standing there looking furious while my friend didn't have a problem letting this guy search his bags. He didn't find anything of course. My friend says" So this is how yall treat military?" and the guy is almost stunned and he asks us "O you guys are military" , he almost stutters to say "well we have had incidents where military guys have stolen something before".

Even if I could sue... I don't want to... I just want to know how can something be done so that this never happens again to me or anyone. I always walk in and out through SEARS nothing like this ever occurred before. I'm thinking maybe its because I always walk through there that they might think I'm always stealing and getting away.

 

[BelizeBreeze]

First off, there is no grounds to sue anyone. And even if there was, YOU have no grounds, only your friend.

The next time you are faced with such a situation, simply say no and proceed on. This security person has no rights to do anything outside of the store except to call the police.

 

[justalayman]

I feel your inclusion of a "black" guy was very inapropriate and uneccessary. Did it really make a difference in your situation or add anything to what you posted here?

Your offense and inference that you feel military personel deserve special treatment if they are believed to be shoplifting is just as wrong.

I do appreciate those that have and those that will serve BUT it does not give them any more rights when they are suspected of a crime.

You seem to have a problem and a feeling of entitlement. Your military status does not give you carte blanche to commit crimes (not claiming you did) You responded to the security as if you are immune to suspicion.

 

[panther10758]

I had this post planned out but justalayman said it all very well! Sears has right to check bags as much as Walmart does. You were not arrested, detained or accussed! You had option to keep walking and Sears could detain you or let you go. No harm no foul no one has grounds to sue and Sears followed procedure (I Know I am familar with Sears Asset Protection) Anyone entering a store with bags gets watch quite often as theifs use these bags to shoplift. The alarm may or may not have gone off but again Sears AP followed procedure and no harm to you or nayone was done. I will again agree with 'justalayman's" observation of your wording on post.

 

[BelizeBreeze]

I had this post planned out but justalayman said it all very well! Sears has right to check bags as much as Walmart does.

Really? And would you like to post the exact statute which gives them this "RIGHT"?

You were not arrested, detained or accussed! You had option to keep walking and Sears could detain you or let you go.

and how did they have any "rights to detain"?

 

[panther10758]

Bag searches are voluntary. In this case it happened outside store unlike Walmart that has bag checks before exit. Each state has its own shoplifitng laws and I admit I may be unfamliar with this states law, however the search was consented to.

They did NOT have the right to detain and they did not that was choice Sears had and beleive it often happens that a detainment occurs without good cause. Fortunatly this Sears AP took the right course of action

 

[BelizeBreeze]

Bag searches are voluntary. In this case it happened outside store unlike Walmart that has bag checks before exit. Each state has its own shoplifitng laws and I admit I may be unfamliar with this states law, however the search was consented to.

you SAID, however, that Sears had a right to check the bags the same as Wal-Mart but nothing in the law gives either that right, either in-store or on private property outside of the store.

They did NOT have the right to detain and they did not that was choice Sears had and beleive it often happens that a detainment occurs without good cause. Fortunatly this Sears AP took the right course of action

Really? the RIGHT course of action would have been for Sears to call the police, NOT intimidate outside the store where they are a private citizen with no more rights than I have to detain. And in this case, there is no such thing as good cause. There IS no 'cause' available to a private person.

 

[panther10758]

you SAID, however, that Sears had a right to check the bags the same as Wal-Mart but nothing in the law gives either that right, either in-store or on private property outside of the store.

Agreed but that doesnt stop them from doing so.

Really? the RIGHT course of action would have been for Sears to call the police, NOT intimidate outside the store where they are a private citizen with no more rights than I have to detain. And in this case, there is no such thing as good cause. There IS no 'cause' available to a private person.

Police are called if an arrest is being made. Far as outside of store well they are privite citzen inside as well. In most states a stop cannot be made until subject exits store. It can be assumed that the subject can still pay while inside store once exit has been made there are no longer a chance to pay and thus in eyes of teh law a theft has occured. If Sears had called PD when would they arrive? Long after OP had left so you would have PD waste their time and look up a license and go to persons home? No we wouldnt! OP had option to refuse check and if that offended should have! Sears would just let him walk. What concerned me the most was the wording in OP's orignal post that wording alone may be suspect his intentions and credibilty.

Sears and most other retailers use a five or step method to make stops (arrests) if even one is not met than an arrst cannot take place. Each AP/LP does have oppurtunities to do what is called a "burn" which does not result in arrest. Now the OP could call Sears and tell Store Manager he was offended by search and most likley SM will give OP a Giftcard or something in return but the Sears AP was within his store guidelines. What OP has NOT told us is entire story! I realize time did not permit but bags coming into store and one subject entering a restroom sends red flags to many AP agents.

 

[panther10758]

BB I am NOT trying to argue just stateing my views on a topic I am familar with. I know better than to get into a war or words with you I am far outgunned!

 

[BelizeBreeze]

you SAID, however, that Sears had a right to check the bags the same as Wal-Mart but nothing in the law gives either that right, either in-store or on private property outside of the store.

Agreed but that doesnt stop them from doing so.

Really? the RIGHT course of action would have been for Sears to call the police, NOT intimidate outside the store where they are a private citizen with no more rights than I have to detain. And in this case, there is no such thing as good cause. There IS no 'cause' available to a private person.

Police are called if an arrest is being made. Far as outside of store well they are privite citzen inside as well. In most states a stop cannot be made until subject exits store. It can be assumed that the subject can still pay while inside store once exit has been made there are no longer a chance to pay and thus in eyes of teh law a theft has occured. If Sears had called PD when would they arrive? Long after OP had left so you would have PD waste their time and look up a license and go to persons home? No we wouldnt! OP had option to refuse check and if that offended should have! Sears would just let him walk. What concerned me the most was the wording in OP's orignal post that wording alone may be suspect his intentions and credibilty.

Sears and most other retailers use a five or step method to make stops (arrests) if even one is not met than an arrst cannot take place. Each AP/LP does have oppurtunities to do what is called a "burn" which does not result in arrest. Now the OP could call Sears and tell Store Manager he was offended by search and most likley SM will give OP a Giftcard or something in return but the Sears AP was within his store guidelines. What OP has NOT told us is entire story! I realize time did not permit but bags coming into store and one subject entering a restroom sends red flags to many AP agents.

read this again and tell me the fatal flaw.

 

[jjr85]

So what else info do you need from me?

 

[justalayman]

you SAID, however, that Sears had a right to check the bags the same as Wal-Mart but nothing in the law gives either that right, either in-store or on private property outside of the store.

Really? the RIGHT course of action would have been for Sears to call the police, NOT intimidate outside the store where they are a private citizen with no more rights than I have to detain. And in this case, there is no such thing as good cause. There IS no 'cause' available to a private person.

BB, I know you are a stickler for correctness (and rightfully so) but I don;t see the fault with his posts.


Actually the statement about Sears compared to Wal-Mart is absolutely correct. They both have the exact same right to check the bags, NONE, but they both have that same right.
He didn;t say they actually had the right to inspect (I know... picky picky but isn;t that what keeps the attorneys paid?)

Quote:
You were not arrested, detained or accussed! You had option to keep walking and Sears could detain you or let you go.

and how did they have any "rights to detain"?

Panther did not state they had the rights to detain merely Sears had that option. Whether it be right or wrong, Sears could have detained the guys. (again, I know, picky)

But, if Sears believed merchandise was actually stolen, do they not have the right to detain. Not always a smart thing to do but is it not an available avenue for them? If not, I must be mistaken (won;t be the first time) as I understood that if somebody was stealing your stuff, you could act to prevent it even if the suspect had actually left the store.

I understand many states have changed their shoplifting laws to allow obvious intent observed inside to give cause to charge the suspect but a long time ago in...Oh. that's another story, but earlier in time, at least my state, and I would guess others as well, used to require crossing the threashold to prove intent. That then puts the theif outside the store. If it is wrong to detain once outside the store, why is it actually required at one point?

 

[panther10758]

Laws vary by state in some state (not mine) concealment is a crime. It is always safe to wait until subject leaves store there are NO registers outside of store in which to make purchase so since all points of sale have been passed it becomes theft. Like I said laws vary by state.

 

[BelizeBreeze]

O.K. let's end this. the stae is Illinois. And the Illinois statutes are clear. In THIS situation the ONLY option left to the security guard under the exact circumstances was to call the police. ANYONE can ask to look in the sack. And ANYONE can tell the requesting party to kiss their grits.

My specific problem with Panther's post was the following:

Police are called if an arrest is being made

NO ONE other than the police or other law enforcement personal, have arrest "rights".

 

[panther10758]

Againist my better judgement

I will get into hair splitting with BB. AP/LP in many states (I am unfamilar with Ill) do "arrest" shoplifters. In fact in my state CA the AP/LP actually signs a document as arresting officer. Stores grant this arrest capablity to AP/LP after passing a trainning course(s) So YES they do arrest however many call this detainment ratehr than arrest but since we are splitting hairs there ya go. Calling PD was tupid in this case as it was clear Sears was making to arrest. In fact since its clear Sears did not have all the lements required by them for an arrest if they had indeed found unpaid for mercandise what they should have done was recover said merchandise and docuement a recovery with an arrest (detainment). BB I have nothing but respect for your views and insight and again I realize I am at an extreme disadvatage gtting into a war of words with you. My purpose is to clarify NOT debate!