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Pain Killers and Possible Malpractice?

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Mec4040

Member
What is the name of your state?NY

Hello,

I have a problem and I dont know where to go for help. I had a back operation 2003 and was sent home with pain killers. For a long period I was alot of drugs at once. I was taking Morphine 30mg, Norco 7.5mg, Neurontin 400mg, Duragesic 100. This went on for a long time because I was still complaining of pain. I had another back operation in 04, which I stated to Dr. it fixed my pain, but I also said still feel some pain in my lower back.

I mentioned about trying to stop taking all the med and he said you will have to do it slow. He then gave me Subox one (Not sure on spelling) I tried it one day and told him I couldnt finish because it was nasty. We never had another talk about taking a different med like Subox which is to help with withdrawals. I stopped taking the Neurontin and finally about 4 or so months ago, stopped taking the Norco on my own. But I'm still taking the Morphine and wearing 2 Duragesic patches at 100mc, which comes to 200mc every 2 days.

I feel like the Dr. makes it too easy for me. He never asks me to check my blood, he has not asked me about taking a med like the suboxone again since I last tried it...nothing! I know I'm in charge of my own body but I can begin to explain how screwed up my life is now. I hate being addicted to these pills.

** Do I have a malpractice against this Dr. for this and if not, why?


Thanks for taking the time to read this.


Jon Kessler
 


ellencee

Senior Member
Mec4040 said:
What is the name of your state?NY

Hello,

I have a problem and I dont know where to go for help. I had a back operation 2003 and was sent home with pain killers. For a long period I was alot of drugs at once. I was taking Morphine 30mg, Norco 7.5mg, Neurontin 400mg, Duragesic 100. This went on for a long time because I was still complaining of pain. I had another back operation in 04, which I stated to Dr. it fixed my pain, but I also said still feel some pain in my lower back.

I mentioned about trying to stop taking all the med and he said you will have to do it slow. He then gave me Subox one (Not sure on spelling) I tried it one day and told him I couldnt finish because it was nasty. We never had another talk about taking a different med like Subox which is to help with withdrawals. I stopped taking the Neurontin and finally about 4 or so months ago, stopped taking the Norco on my own. But I'm still taking the Morphine and wearing 2 Duragesic patches at 100mc, which comes to 200mc every 2 days.

I feel like the Dr. makes it too easy for me. He never asks me to check my blood, he has not asked me about taking a med like the suboxone again since I last tried it...nothing! I know I'm in charge of my own body but I can begin to explain how screwed up my life is now. I hate being addicted to these pills.

** Do I have a malpractice against this Dr. for this and if not, why?


Thanks for taking the time to read this.


Jon Kessler
Based on the information in your post, you do not have a viable claim of malpractice. The medications you listed, morphine and duragesic, can result in physical dependence on the medications; psychological dependence is a potential concern, but not for every person who takes these medications.

A claim of medical malpractice must include an act of negligence that results in significant damages to the patient and the damages must not be the result of any other action. In your case, physical dependence on the medications is not a result of negligence but an expected potential outcome of the medication regimen.

Current medical trends, which are the current acceptable standards of practice, separate resolution of physical or psychological dependence on medications from medical treatment for a specific need such as your chronic back pain. Withdrawing the patient from dependence on medication(s) is left to the patient, with or without a referral to a substance abuse counselor or facility.

If your goal is to withdraw from these medications, you can make the necessary adjustments and ease yourself off of them. If you believe you can't do this without professional help, then seek assistance from a pain management center or a drug abuse center.

EC
 

zippysgoddess

Senior Member
I have to agree, this doctor did not make you take and use all these meds, you did that. He was simply trying to help you manage the pain which YOU complained about.

As to the Suboxone, of course it is nasty at first, it contains a narcotic that has a very low rate of side effects and addiction, much easier to quit than other narcotics, plus it contains an opiod agonist that neutralizes the other narcotics in your system to prevent your using them, and/or abusing them while you are on the Suboxone, so you were starting to experience withdrawals from the other meds, which usually lasts a day or two, until the Sub kicks in.

As to offering another med to try, after you refused to continue the Suboxone, there aren't any! The only other alternative is Methadone which is much more addictive, has many more side effects, and is much more dangerous. To break an addiction using Methadone, you have to go to a licensed Methadone Detox center, regular docs are not allowed to prescribe it for such because it requires daily monitoring and a very high dose that is slowly tapered down.
 

panzertanker

Senior Member
Mec4040 said:
I have a problem
Yes, after reading this post, I agree with you...
Mec4040 said:
and I dont know where to go for help.
A certified Addictionologist.


Mec4040 said:
I mentioned about trying to stop taking all the med and he said you will have to do it slow.
Correct.
Mec4040 said:
He then gave me Subox one (Not sure on spelling) I tried it one day and told him I couldnt finish because it was nasty.
Didn't get "high", so you stopped tx, against advice, HUH???
Mec4040 said:
We never had another talk about taking a different med like Subox which is to help with withdrawals.
Would you have been more compliant with any other drug???
Mec4040 said:
I stopped taking the Neurontin and finally about 4 or so months ago, stopped taking the Norco on my own.
Good for you...
Mec4040 said:
But I'm still taking the Morphine and wearing 2 Duragesic patches at 100mc, which comes to 200mc every 2 days.
Duragesic is a 72 hour patch, NOT 48**************.
So is that how it is prescribed to you?????


Mec4040 said:
I feel like the Dr. makes it too easy for me.
You don't seem to make it too hard...
It is easy to commit suicide, just step off a curb. Does that make me responsible for you taking your life if you decide to abuse a situation????
Mec4040 said:
He never asks me to check my blood, he has not asked me about taking a med like the suboxone again since I last tried it...nothing!
One-sided version of events...
Mec4040 said:
I know I'm in charge of my own body
Then ACT like it!!!!!
Mec4040 said:
but I can begin to explain how screwed up my life is now. I hate being addicted to these pills.
Have you tried to do anything other than whine about how your MD has not done anything to help you???
I am sure you just jump up and down and refuse the meds every time you see him.....

Mec4040 said:
** Do I have a malpractice against this Dr. for this and if not, why?


Thanks for taking the time to read this.


Jon Kessler
No, b/c there is no evidence of malpractice based on your post....
 

Ph128

Member
question?
How is it that the doctor keeps giving the patient those meds when the patient wants to wean himself off of them.
Wouldn't it be reasonable for the doctor to start reducing the doses gradually?
Isn't the doctor the one who must prescribe those meds? Sure the patient is the one taking them and no one is forcing him to take them but wouldn't one consider the doctor to have a little say in the matter?
It would seem to me that to continue on the same course of prescribing those meds would only be contributing to the man's addiction.
 

abaga

Member
panzertanker said:
Yes, after reading this post, I agree with you...

A certified Addictionologist.



Correct.

Didn't get "high", so you stopped tx, against advice, HUH???

Would you have been more compliant with any other drug???

Good for you...

Duragesic is a 72 hour patch, NOT 48**************.
So is that how it is prescribed to you?????



You don't seem to make it too hard...
It is easy to commit suicide, just step off a curb. Does that make me responsible for you taking your life if you decide to abuse a situation????

One-sided version of events...

Then ACT like it!!!!!

Have you tried to do anything other than whine about how your MD has not done anything to help you???
I am sure you just jump up and down and refuse the meds every time you see him.....


No, b/c there is no evidence of malpractice based on your post....

Panzertanker...

With all due respect, Duragesic is now being Rx'ed at 48 hour interverals in some instances. I was on it a couple of years ago for a number of years. I was on it q 72 hours, but I knew many that were changing their patches as per their PAIN DOCS instruction every 48. In fact, when I spoke to Jannsen about something, I asked, and they said it can be changed q 48 hours. Some people need to change more often due to the absorption rate of the medication from various factors.
 

abaga

Member
Ph128 said:
question?
How is it that the doctor keeps giving the patient those meds when the patient wants to wean himself off of them.
Wouldn't it be reasonable for the doctor to start reducing the doses gradually?
Isn't the doctor the one who must prescribe those meds? Sure the patient is the one taking them and no one is forcing him to take them but wouldn't one consider the doctor to have a little say in the matter?
It would seem to me that to continue on the same course of prescribing those meds would only be contributing to the man's addiction.

The patient may be stating they want off of the meds to the forum, but s/he may not be delivering the same message to their MD...at least not in a clear enough way so that the Dr. knows s/he truly wants to come off.

It is always best to taper off of the medications. The Dr. can help by putting the patient on a taper schedule.
 

Ph128

Member
abaga said:
The patient may be stating they want off of the meds to the forum, but s/he may not be delivering the same message to their MD...at least not in a clear enough way so that the Dr. knows s/he truly wants to come off.

It is always best to taper off of the medications. The Dr. can help by putting the patient on a taper schedule.

I can see how that could be!
But I've also heard of patients who go doctor shopping after their own physicians want to get them off those powerful meds.
That sort of leads me to think that not all doctors follow the same procedures.
Is it possible that some physicians may not be qualified to treat some patient's pain.
In my own situation (I don't take pain meds), I had had a blood pressure problem for years which my Family Physicians had been supposedly been treating correctly but I ended up going to a Cardiologist for cardiomyopathy caused by my out of control blood pressure.
He systematically started different meds and followup exams until I finally was under control.
Coreg was one of the meds he has me on.
Last year I went to a new family physician because of the way my health insurance is structured to get a wellness exam. The insurance company will pay 100% to a family physician but not a specialist for blood work, etc. if coded as wellness.
The family physician asked me if I wanted him to treat me for BP and I told him I was under the care of a cardiologist and he seemed a little put out but said he would give me some prescriptions for the meds I was taking.
One thing I noticed different was how he prescribed Coreg. He prescribed it to be taken Once a day where as my cardiologist said I must take it every twelve hours.
Coreg makes me feel greatly fatigued, shortly after I take it, and I had already asked the cardiologist if I could only take it once a day and he said it must be taken twice a day because of the way it works.
NOW, I wonder about the family physician's credibility!
Could they be as ignorant with other treatments for their patients?
IF after the harm was done after incorrectly taking that med, had I followed his advice, would I just be SOL, complaining about it?
 
Last edited:

rmet4nzkx

Senior Member
Ph128 said:
I can see how that could be!
But I've also heard of patients who go doctor shopping after their own physicians want to get them off those powerful meds.
That sort of leads me to think that not all doctors follow the same procedures.
Is it possible that some physicians may not be qualified to treat some patient's pain.
In my own situation (I don't take pain meds), I had had a blood pressure problem for years which my Family Physicians had been supposedly been treating correctly but I ended up going to a Cardiologist for cardiomyopathy caused by my out of control blood pressure.
He systematically started different meds and followup exams until I finally was under control.
Coreg was one of the meds he has me on.
Last year I went to a new family physician because of the way my health insurance is structured to get a wellness exam. The insurance company will pay 100% to a family physician but not a specialist for blood work, etc. if coded as wellness.
The family physician asked me if I wanted him to treat me for BP and I told him I was under the care of a cardiologist and he seemed a little put out but said he would give me some prescriptions for the meds I was taking.
One thing I noticed different was how he prescribed Coreg. He prescribed it to be taken Once a day where as my cardiologist said I must take it every twelve hours.
Coreg makes me feel greatly fatigued, shortly after I take it, and I had already asked the cardiologist if I could only take it once a day and he said it must be taken twice a day because of the way it works.
NOW, I wonder about the family physician's credibility!
Could they be as ignorant with other treatments for their patients?
IF after the harm was done after incorrectly taking that med, had I followed his advice, would I just be SOL, complaining about it?
You should start your own thread, however what the Cardiologist is saying is true, and this is why. The medication Coreg, has a half-life of 7-10 hours so to maintain a constant state in your blood requires dosing twice a day perhaps 3 times a day if you are a rapid metabolizer and depending on the other medications you take which may effect it's action. Are you tkaing the medicaiton with food? You may appeal to your plan if your health is compromised by not allowing access to your specialist especially if the psp isn't following the reccommended prescription fo rthe medication. Here is a link that describes in great detail the aciton of the Rx and the prescription info on the tab at the top of the page. .
http://www.rxlist.com/cgi/generic3/carvedilol_cp.htm
If you are feeling greatly fatigued after you take it please note that it is reccommended that you take it with food to avoid orthostatic hypotention and also avoid driving or other risky activities which require your attention.
 

Ph128

Member
I appreciate the info on Coreg. I have always taken it with food. It just doesn't matter, In about 30 minutes after taking it, I can fall asleep in just a minute or two if I lie down. I have to fight to stay awake and I won't drive while I am feeling that way. I'm sick and tired of it but the Cardiologist says there is nothing on the market to replace it for what he says I need it for. After finding out about my heart being so large, I am much more aware now. I guess I just have to put up with it.
My point though was that I don't think everyone who is being treated with pain meds are being treated equally!
Just like as with my heart problem, I believe patients who are having severe pain should be referred to a pain specialist rather than just the family physician.
I believe there would be much less misery from the side effects that are a certainty if physicians were especially trained to deal with them, just like the family physician was not correct in my situation. Where would I be if I had not known the Cardiologist?
Of course a good question now may be, if my FP's had been more aggressive to start with, Would I be in the shape I'm in today?
After all, I did seek help from them and did trust they would be taking care of me!
What a way to get an education, huh?
 
Last edited:

rmet4nzkx

Senior Member
Ph128 said:
I appreciate the info on Coreg. I have always taken it with food. It just doesn't matter, In about 30 minutes after taking it, I can fall asleep in just a minute or two if I lie down. I have to fight to stay awake and I won't drive while I am feeling that way. I'm sick and tired of it but the Cardiologist says there is nothing on the market to replace it for what he says I need it for. After finding out about my heart being so large, I am much more aware now. I guess I just have to put up with it.
My point though was that I don't think everyone who is being treated with pain meds are being treated equally!
Just like as with my heart problem, I believe patients who are having severe pain should be referred to a pain specialist rather than just the family physician.
I believe there would be much less misery from the side effects that are a certainty if physicians were especially trained to deal with them, just like the family physician was not correct in my situation. Where would I be if I had not known the Cardiologist?
Of course a good question now may be, if my FP's had been more aggressive to start with, Would I be in the shape I'm in today?
After all, I did seek help from them and did trust they would be taking care of me!
What a way to get an education, huh?
The problem is that chronic pain patients who don't want to get off their drugs don't ask to or don't ask for a referal, in fact will see two or more doctors to avoid haivng to face their addiciton or make a half hearted attempt to cooporate to slowly lower the dose. In some cases, the patient doesn't have th emoney or innsurnace may control who they see. So there are reasons that happens, it is not a perfect world.

You as a patient need to learn about your condition and every medication you take, in addition to cooporating with your doctors. You may need the rest and may want to seek a referal to a dietician there may be some diet changes that will make you feel better. You might also ask your cardiologist about cardio rehab and possible relaxation/mediation. DOn't start any exercise program without your doctors permission.
 

ashkyla

Member
Ph128 said:
Coreg makes me feel greatly fatigued, shortly after I take it, and I had already asked the cardiologist if I could only take it once a day and he said it must be taken twice a day because of the way it works.
NOW, I wonder about the family physician's credibility!
Could they be as ignorant with other treatments for their patients?
IF after the harm was done after incorrectly taking that med, had I followed his advice, would I just be SOL, complaining about it?

It depends on the doctor. I have noticed that especially in the case of older doctors, that have been practicing 15 years or more, they don't seem to be very up to date.

I had an eye infection, went to my family doctor (who is older than God and all the Tyrannosaurs combined), got a prescription, and when I went to fill it, the pharmacist almost had a coronary because the database specifically said that the prescription for cream I was given said to keep away from eyes.

A lot of it can be attributed to the amount of knowledge that is changed/updated every year in the medical community. And the truth is, doctors aren't up-trained like even salesmen are. They're supposed to go to a few seminars a year, squeeze ten years' worth of research and new info into a few hours time, and know all of the advances in medicine that have occurred since they graduated medical school, just like that.

Except in cases of severe negligence, where the doctor obviously didn't give a rat's ass, or wasn't paying attention to important details (like, hey, I can't give a drug addict heroine, that would be bad), I'd say it's the same as in any other business. "Buyer, beware."
 

Mec4040

Member
Hello again,

Wow panzertanker...talk about being rude and nasty! Your remark about "Didn't get "high", so you stopped tx, against advice, HUH???"....could not have been more wrong. First I want to clear up the fact that seeing how I want to know if I have any case or not...I made sure not to make stuff up or shade the truth, because I didnt want to waste anyones time.

Now to answer the dumb response about getting 'high'. I stopped taking the Suboxone because it tasted nasty and I couldnt withstand waiting for the whole thing to disolve. When I mentioned to the Dr. about stopping it, he had no problem...I would have thought he might had said to me about trying something else, or trying to take the Suboxone a different way...but nope, he said nothing. He did however prescribe my monthly dose of pain killers and seeing how I this happened about 4 months ago, he never once mentioned about cutting down...or saying "hey, you know we spoke about cutting your med down and we have yet to try, why dont we give it another try".

Your other remark "One-sided version of events..." are you really this childish, panzertanker? I posted here because I'm asking for advice and it would work against my needing advice, if I lied. So, no he never did ask me to get my blood checked, and he never again mentioned about cutting down or stopping.

Lastly, let me ask...doesnt the Dr. have some responabilty to how long, or how much he prescribes. Is he not the Dr.? Shouldnt he question why we made an effort to stop but never finished?


Thanks for some of the helpful advice,
 
S

shell007

Guest
If the Doc is NOT OVER-PRESCRIBING then he is not doing anything wrong.

If you continue to tell him that you are in pain, he is going to continue to treat you for pain. I bet you would be real thrilled if he REFUSED to give you meds and then had continued pain. Then you would be asking how sue him for NON-TREATMENT. :rolleyes:

It is not the Doc's job to hold your hand. He is not forcing them down your throat is he????
 

ellencee

Senior Member
Mec4040 said:
Hello again,

Wow panzertanker...talk about being rude and nasty! Your remark about "Didn't get "high", so you stopped tx, against advice, HUH???"....could not have been more wrong. First I want to clear up the fact that seeing how I want to know if I have any case or not...I made sure not to make stuff up or shade the truth, because I didnt want to waste anyones time.

Now to answer the dumb response about getting 'high'. I stopped taking the Suboxone because it tasted nasty and I couldnt withstand waiting for the whole thing to disolve. When I mentioned to the Dr. about stopping it, he had no problem...I would have thought he might had said to me about trying something else, or trying to take the Suboxone a different way...but nope, he said nothing. He did however prescribe my monthly dose of pain killers and seeing how I this happened about 4 months ago, he never once mentioned about cutting down...or saying "hey, you know we spoke about cutting your med down and we have yet to try, why dont we give it another try".

Your other remark "One-sided version of events..." are you really this childish, panzertanker? I posted here because I'm asking for advice and it would work against my needing advice, if I lied. So, no he never did ask me to get my blood checked, and he never again mentioned about cutting down or stopping.

Lastly, let me ask...doesnt the Dr. have some responabilty to how long, or how much he prescribes. Is he not the Dr.? Shouldnt he question why we made an effort to stop but never finished?


Thanks for some of the helpful advice,
Your questions have been asked and answered.
Based on the information in your post, you do not have a viable claim of malpractice. The medications you listed, morphine and duragesic, can result in physical dependence on the medications; psychological dependence is a potential concern, but not for every person who takes these medications.

A claim of medical malpractice must include an act of negligence that results in significant damages to the patient and the damages must not be the result of any other action. In your case, physical dependence on the medications is not a result of negligence but an expected potential outcome of the medication regimen.

Current medical trends, which are the current acceptable standards of practice, separate resolution of physical or psychological dependence on medications from medical treatment for a specific need such as your chronic back pain. Withdrawing the patient from dependence on medication(s) is left to the patient, with or without a referral to a substance abuse counselor or facility.

If your goal is to withdraw from these medications, you can make the necessary adjustments and ease yourself off of them. If you believe you can't do this without professional help, then seek assistance from a pain management center or a drug abuse center.

EC

EC
 

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