Plea Bargain Procedure Question

[PhxGuy520]

What is the name of your state? AZ

Procedure Question

How does the typical plea bargain process work? Does the lawyer of the accused contact the prosecutor first with an offer or is it typically the other way around. Is the process any different if the accused is defending himself?

Thanks.

 

[Kane]

Plea bargains work like other agreements. Either side can make an offer to settle the case at any time. Where I live prosecutors usually make the first offer, usually at the first court setting. Offers are usually - but not always - negotiable.

Technically it doesn't matter whether you're defending yourself. As a practical matter, who is doing the negotiating can make a difference, however. For example, a good trial attorney may be able to obtain a better offer from a prosecutor than somebody who doesn't know how to try a case.

 

[PhxGuy520]

Plea bargains work like other agreements. Either side can make an offer to settle the case at any time. Where I live prosecutors usually make the first offer, usually at the first court setting. Offers are usually - but not always - negotiable.

Technically it doesn't matter whether you're defending yourself. As a practical matter, who is doing the negotiating can make a difference, however. For example, a good trial attorney may be able to obtain a better offer from a prosecutor than somebody who doesn't know how to try a case.

Thank you for your response. I have follow up question, and I know its only your opinion.

I am charged with a class 6 felony which in Arizona is mandatory diversion program for first offense. I am told many times you can plea down the class 1 misdemeanor rather then take the class 6 felony. If I am defending myself and I am offered the class, but not the reduction, what is the proper way to counter offer?

Is it as simple as asking for it like the CD Changer in a new car?

Do I put in some legal terms or document. Do I need to show precedence during my request/argument or simply ask and wait for a reply.

 

[Bretagne]

Really, I would recommend that you use a lawyer for this. Plea bargaining is very localized, meaning that things are handled very, very differently in one court than in another which might be just a few miles away in the same city, the same county, the same state.

If you deal yourself, you run the risk of:
(1) saying something incriminating which will hurt you later, and
(2) pi$$ing off the prosecutor, who will then refuse to deal with you and might even re-charge you with a more serious offense.*

*caveat: it is a common prosecutorial tactic to overcharge a defendant to allow room for negotiation in the plea process. It is also common for a prosecutor to do very little review of the matter when charging, so sometimes lighter-than-normal charges come down due to a less-than-thorough review. If this prosecutor is encouraged to review the matter due to your plea negotiation tactics, he/she might discover something that merits an amended complaint.

 

[seniorjudge]

Even though May is NATIONAL DO NOT DOUBLE POST MONTH, I will take pity on you since the original thread you started on this subject is turning into a big fight (and I will join in soon!)



Q: How does the typical plea bargain process work? Does the lawyer of the accused contact the prosecutor first with an offer or is it typically the other way around. Is the process any different if the accused is defending himself?

A: There is no such thing a typical plea bargain process. Most times (my opinion only) the prosecutor won't start the process. If you or your lawyer want to plea bargain, call the prosecutor.



Q: I am charged with a class 6 felony which in Arizona is mandatory diversion program for first offense. I am told many times you can plea down the class 1 misdemeanor rather then take the class 6 felony. If I am defending myself and I am offered the class, but not the reduction, what is the proper way to counter offer?

A: "And, while you are at it, reduce the charge to a misdemeanor! Please!!"


Q: Is it as simple as asking for it like the CD Changer in a new car?

A: I tried that once and it took me weeks before the car dealer could s or get off the pot.


Q: Do I put in some legal terms or document.

A: Yes. Say, "I'll plead guilty to a misdemeanor and save you a trial."


Q: Do I need to show precedence during my request/argument or simply ask and wait for a reply.

A: "Precedence"? I am not sure what you mean. Precedents, maybe? In any event, try to make yourself look as good as possible. Of course, reading your other posts, you have no intention of following the law. You are on the radar down to the cop shop now; so if you do get probation or a plea bargain, expect lots of hassle.



Don't post back bitching at me; you wanted opinions, you're getting them.

 

[PhxGuy520]

Really, I would recommend that you use a lawyer for this. Plea bargaining is very localized, meaning that things are handled very, very differently in one court than in another which might be just a few miles away in the same city, the same county, the same state.

If you deal yourself, you run the risk of:
(1) saying something incriminating which will hurt you later, and
(2) pi$$ing off the prosecutor, who will then refuse to deal with you and might even re-charge you with a more serious offense.*

*caveat: it is a common prosecutorial tactic to overcharge a defendant to allow room for negotiation in the plea process. It is also common for a prosecutor to do very little review of the matter when charging, so sometimes lighter-than-normal charges come down due to a less-than-thorough review. If this prosecutor is encouraged to review the matter due to your plea negotiation tactics, he/she might discover something that merits an amended complaint.

Unfortunately I dont have the reserves for what a lawyer wants, and I make too much for a PD. After my home was broken into the officer found a bong. 6 months later I get a PDP charge. They didnt find any drugs other then resin in the bong. So I guess they could recharge me with the less then 2 ounces possession charge as well as PDP, but in Arizona that is still mandatory diversion program.

So I cant justify the 2500-5000 that the lawyers want just to plea down from felony 6 to misdemeanor 1.

Any tips on not pissing off the DA.

What are some of the things a novice might do that would piss them off.

What if I explained my reasoning for asking for a misdemeanor rather then a felony? (Mostly being able to get work to support my family). First offense, volunteer time to kids. Are some things I thought of to show I dont some good in the community. Heck I even apprehended one of the suspects on my own. (probably doesn't count for anything I am sure). I am just a "pothead". What if I asked for additional community service in exchange for the lower charge?

I in no means intend to pretend I am lawyer. I plan to be VERY respectful and simply tell them if I had the funds for lawyer they would be sitting across from them, but I dont.

 

[PhxGuy520]

Even though May is NATIONAL DO NOT DOUBLE POST MONTH, I will take pity on you since the original thread you started on this subject is turning into a big fight (and I will join in soon!)



Q: How does the typical plea bargain process work? Does the lawyer of the accused contact the prosecutor first with an offer or is it typically the other way around. Is the process any different if the accused is defending himself?

A: There is no such thing a typical plea bargain process. Most times (my opinion only) the prosecutor won't start the process. If you or your lawyer want to plea bargain, call the prosecutor.



Q: I am charged with a class 6 felony which in Arizona is mandatory diversion program for first offense. I am told many times you can plea down the class 1 misdemeanor rather then take the class 6 felony. If I am defending myself and I am offered the class, but not the reduction, what is the proper way to counter offer?

A: "And, while you are at it, reduce the charge to a misdemeanor! Please!!"


Q: Is it as simple as asking for it like the CD Changer in a new car?

A: I tried that once and it took me weeks before the car dealer could s or get off the pot.


Q: Do I put in some legal terms or document.

A: Yes. Say, "I'll plead guilty to a misdemeanor and save you a trial."


Q: Do I need to show precedence during my request/argument or simply ask and wait for a reply.

A: "Precedence"? I am not sure what you mean. Precedents, maybe? In any event, try to make yourself look as good as possible. Of course, reading your other posts, you have no intention of following the law. You are on the radar down to the cop shop now; so if you do get probation or a plea bargain, expect lots of hassle.



Don't post back bitching at me; you wanted opinions, you're getting them.

Thank you...very helpful.

BTW...My original post was in the "search and seizure" section because that was my original question."Was the search legal".

This post in the plea bargain section since it has to do with plea bargains process.

I will accept your apology since you provided some good info.

There is no reason to hate me. You are passionate things and so am I.

 

[seniorjudge]

Any tips on not pissing off the DA.

Yes; be very nice. The prosecutor doesn't even have to talk to you. Get everything in writing. Don't argue with him; listen a lot. Take notes. Be repentant. No prosecutor wants to hear about the dope laws being unjust, blah, blah, blah. The prosecutor didn't pass the laws so don't get all high and mighty with him.



What are some of the things a novice might do that would piss them off.

What pissed me off about pro se litigants (as a judge and a prosecutor) was their arrogance. Don't tell the judge and the prosecutor that you can do a better job than most lawyers (even if it is true). Remember, the prosecutor and judge see hundreds of people just like you. You are not special.


What if I explained my reasoning for asking for a misdemeanor rather then a felony? (Mostly being able to get work to support my family). First offense, volunteer time to kids. Are some things I thought of to show I dont some good in the community. Heck I even apprehended one of the suspects on my own. (probably doesn't count for anything I am sure). I am just a "pothead". What if I asked for additional community service in exchange for the lower charge?

Explain all you want; just be nice. Moral outrage, threatening, anger, etc. won't get you anywhere with a prosecutor.


I in no means intend to pretend I am lawyer. I plan to be VERY respectful and simply tell them if I had the funds for lawyer they would be sitting across from them, but I dont.

I'd leave that out; just say you cannot afford a lawyer and you make too much for the tax payers to pay for your lawyer (i.e., public defender).





It worries me that you do not understand a simple concept such as double posting.

This thread and the other thread had to do with your dope problems with the law.

 

[PhxGuy520]

It worries me that you do not understand a simple concept such as double posting.

It worries me that you think you do.

Just like the file system on your computer. This whole forum is just a big file system.

This whole forum is about law. And this a subsection(subfolder) about criminal law. Those have subsections (subfolders) broken in categories. Of:

Arrests, Searches, Warrants & Procedure (Which I asked if the search was legal)
Drug Charges
Drunk Driving / DUI / DWI
Sentencing / Parole / Pardons / Plea Bargains
etc...


In each of those areas I would expect to find "experts" on that particular area. I wouldn't expect to find an expert on plea bargains under Arrests, Searches, Warrants & Procedure. Just like you would not expect to find an expert on car audio systems at Brake Masters.
I dont have a question about the search being legal any longer. That questions is answered. I know it was legal. (Atleast part of it).

I now have a separate questions about plea bargains. So which would you post that question under...

a) Arrests, Searches, Warrants & Procedure
b) Drug Charges
c) Sentencing / Parole / Pardons / Plea Bargains
d) All of the above


I work in IT. You work in law. Stick to law.

 

[seniorjudge]

The double post concept means all questions arising out of an incident. This is a simple concept.


IF
you have a problem and want to talk about it on this forum
THEN
you post it in one thread.
ENDIF


Thus, everything arising out of your arrest should be ONE thread.

It really makes it a lot easier for people to help you.

And what makes you think I don't work in IT?

 

[PhxGuy520]

The double post concept means all questions arising out of an incident. This is a simple concept.


IF
you have a problem and want to talk about it on this forum
THEN
you post it in one thread.
ENDIF


Thus, everything arising out of your arrest should be ONE thread.

It really makes it a lot easier for people to help you.

I asked that question in my thread didnt get a response. So I deleted the question and brought it here. You were saying?

And what makes you think I don't work in IT?

Ummmm because you dont know why forums have subsections. I think the superiority complex is getting to you. Just because you spend all day here, doesnt make you a decision maker.

LOL...So why even have subsections? Just create one big forum.

Wow an if statement. Why didn't you just post a picture of your screen saver? Mean about as much.

You are wrong. But you are a judge, so you will never admit it.

Thanks for the replies. Seriously.

But I can tell why you are in law? Love to argue just to argue.

 

[Kane]

Thank you for your response. I have follow up question, and I know its only your opinion.

I am charged with a class 6 felony which in Arizona is mandatory diversion program for first offense. I am told many times you can plea down the class 1 misdemeanor rather then take the class 6 felony. If I am defending myself and I am offered the class, but not the reduction, what is the proper way to counter offer?

Well, like Judge said, they do things differently in different places. Without knowing anything about where you live, I'd be hesitant to try to offer any pointers. Generally speaking I don't think there's anything wrong with saying what you want, and explaining why you should get it. If you want something out of the ordinary, you should be able to explain why your case is different from everybody else's. If you have any documents that in any way strengthen your case, you should bring copies. (Prosecutors like putting papers in their files. )

Is it as simple as asking for it like the CD Changer in a new car?

Do I put in some legal terms or document. Do I need to show precedence during my request/argument or simply ask and wait for a reply.

No. I mean, if you had a good suppression argument, it'd be appropriate to bring that up while you were talking about the plea bargain, but from what I remember of the other thread, it doesn't sound like you do.

You might want to mention your house was being burglarized when you caught this case, if they don't already know that. And if you've never been arrested, that's worth mentioning too.

One other thing - and I say this because it sounds like they take PDP much more seriously in AZ than they do in TX - if expense is the issue, consider calling some more lawyers. Those big ads in the phone book are expensive, and you may be able to find someone who charges less, if you keep trying.

 

[garrula lingua]

Really, I would recommend that you use a lawyer for this. Plea bargaining is very localized, meaning that things are handled very, very differently in one court than in another which might be just a few miles away in the same city, the same county, the same state.

If you deal yourself, you run the risk of:
(1) saying something incriminating which will hurt you later, and
(2) pi$$ing off the prosecutor, who will then refuse to deal with you and might even re-charge you with a more serious offense.*

*caveat: it is a common prosecutorial tactic to overcharge a defendant to allow room for negotiation in the plea process. It is also common for a prosecutor to do very little review of the matter when charging, so sometimes lighter-than-normal charges come down due to a less-than-thorough review. If this prosecutor is encouraged to review the matter due to your plea negotiation tactics, he/she might discover something that merits an amended complaint.

BS.
A prosecutor should/does NOT 'overcharge' - s/he will quickly lose face (& power) with the judge & defense counsel (rightfully) will set all the cases for trial (as the Prosecutor can't convict if overcharged).
The essense of charging is: is it provable at trial. Does the charge meet ALL the elements of the offense at trial. If not, then the case will be challenged (in CA by a 995 or 991 motion) successfully, and it will be thrown out.

The end result will be a ticked off Judge, a happy, super-inflated defense attorney, and a Prosecutor who violated ethics and just embarrassed him/herself.

Cases are reviewed very well before charging. Information may arise after charging which would make a case more ameniable for plea bargain/reduction/dismissal (poor or missing witnesses, alibi, new evidence).

Let me tell you - if the charging deputy is overcharging, the trial deputy will eat them alive. No Prosecutor 'wants to be/will be' in court, embarrassing themselves by pressing ridiculous or losing charges (and they don't have to - there are plenty of defendants out there who are easily proven guilty - by defendant's own admission). They will flay their co-worker alive for the unforgivable sin of leaving them, in public, holding a sour bag of pure poop.
Attorneys are NOT known for their lack of ego & no Prosecutor wants to be seen as prosecuting unfairly and defending wrongful charges.

It's easier to charge correctly (come on, how many clients of yours are 'innocent') and keep the white hat on & be able to put your heart into the prosecution (as well as that being the only ethical choice).

That charging Deputy, who you deal with, better be a good runner.

PS: We're not talking about Nifong here, he was a sad aberration from any norm.



OP: Why don't you respond to the Prosecutor in the same manner as you responded to SrJudge... Most Prosecutors know a bulls^^er when they see one - they've seen hundreds of you before. Go ahead, try to prove you're smarter.

You'll get that Prosecutor's standard offer, based upon your priors and the facts of this case.

 

[PhxGuy520]

OP: Why don't you respond to the Prosecutor in the same manner as you responded to SrJudge... Most Prosecutors know a bulls^^er when they see one - they've seen hundreds of you before. Go ahead, try to prove you're smarter.

Thanks for being able to seperate message board banter from real life. Seriously its helpful.

You'll get that Prosecutor's standard offer, based upon your priors and the facts of this case

Great. Any answers to other questions I posed?

 

[PhxGuy520]

One other thing - and I say this because it sounds like they take PDP much more seriously in AZ than they do in TX - if expense is the issue, consider calling some more lawyers. Those big ads in the phone book are expensive, and you may be able to find someone who charges less, if you keep trying.

Thanks for the reply.

Well I am told by attorneys that Arizona doesn't prosecute that many, but my town does. WOO HOO!

I had one attorney turn me down just because he does not like dealing with my town. lol