Police Misconduct

[CdwJava]

Hiring an attorney for a personnel complaint seems a bit like overkill to me. Why pay $1,500 or more for something your daughter can do for herself??

- Carl

 

[BOR]

Then officers in many large, urban agencies in the USA are regularly violating the law.

I think you are wrong. It is not an unlawful seizure for an officer to have his weapon drawn. It might be a violation of agency policy, and I imagine there might be a few agencies that still have some archaic policy that says if you draw it you have to be facing a serious and articulable threat, but most such policies have gone the way of the dodo in the past dozen or so years. For the most part, the officer is permitted to have his weapon out if he feels a need to do so. Depending on the circumstances, it might be unprofessional, and in some cases (such as being pointed at someone or displayed in a threatening manner) the action might even be criminal. But, if it was merely drawn and in his hand, it is hardly going to be an unlawful seizure. After all, he already had the driver detained for ostensibly running the red light.

I understand all that. I know an officer has to be cautious. I have seen case law where drawing a gun on a person is considered an arrest, not talking about a probable cause arrest though. If a cop approaches a car with his gun "visibly" drawn, for no reason (emphasis added) as it seems was the case here, then he needs a new line of work, he's too paranoid!

I also said IMO, it is an UNreasonable seizure, I never said it was law.

When I was a copper in the big city, I would regularly approach a car - particularly if there were multiple occupants - with my gun drawn and behind my right thigh. I tried to keep it out of sight, but sometimes it was not - and that served me well. If the bad guys were looking, and saw that my gun was at the ready, maybe they would be less likely to attack. If, after contact, I saw that the occupants did not appear to be a threat, I would try to surreptitiously holster my weapon.

- Carl

I have not interacted with many cops of forums, but I never heard one say he regularly approached a car with his gun drawn. Multiple occupants/ dark night, sure, but not regularly.

Let's reverse it. You are an elderly lady stopped by an officer and you see him approaching you with his gun drawn, how would you feel?

 

[CdwJava]

I understand all that. I know an officer has to be cautious. I have seen case law where drawing a gun on a person is considered an arrest, not talking about a probable cause arrest though. If a cop approaches a car with his gun "visibly" drawn, for no reason (emphasis added) as it seems was the case here, then he needs a new line of work, he's too paranoid!

I also said IMO, it is an UNreasonable seizure, I never said it was law.

The seizure had already occurred. It is not made unreasonable simply because the officer had a gun drawn.

And, as I said, if it was out for NO reason, there could be problems up to and including brandishing a weapon or assault. But, unless pointed at someone, the worst that it would generally be is a policy violation.

Heck, John Q. Citizen can walk down the street with a rifle slung over his shoulder and do so legally. He will attract attention, he will likely get shaken down by the cops, and while not bright it would be lawful. An officer has the same sort of leeway.

I have not interacted with many cops of forums, but I never heard one say he regularly approached a car with his gun drawn. Multiple occupants/ dark night, sure, but not regularly.

Clearly, you have never worked a gang neighborhood and been shot at ... or had guys bail out of a car and try to gang-foo you because they were running a load of weapons and prowling an opposing barrio waiting to do a drive by. Yeah, when you work those areas, you make the approach with your weapon at your side, or, at the very least, your hand ON the butt of the weapon as it is unsnapped and canted.

San Diego PD had sufficient influence in the regional academy for a few years that they punished cadets who even TOUCHED their weapons in the academy. The problem was so bad that not only did they have a spate of officer involved shootings and fatalities 20 years ago, other agencies had to re-train their new officers to actually manipulate their weapons when they got out of the car.

Let's reverse it. You are an elderly lady stopped by an officer and you see him approaching you with his gun drawn, how would you feel?

If I was the old lady, I probably wouldn't feel too good. But, we're not talking about the officer approaching in a crouched, modified weaver stance, gun pointed down range, we're talking about it hidden behind the thigh or even in the holster with the hand on the weapon. If the officer's precaution makes her nervous, I'm sorry, If she asks about it, I'd be happy to explain it later - and I have done so ... most of us have.

When you have been on the receiving end of the pucker factor on a vehicle approach, you learn quickly that the 1/2 to 1 second you save in drawing your weapon can save your life. Keep in mind that most officers have double and triple retention holsters ... a bad guy has his weapon in hand, c ocked and locked and ready to fire ... so, tell me, which would you prefer? Offer an explanation on the off chance that the driver or a passenger notices the gun out and asks about it? Or risk an ambulance ride? I'll go with the explanation.

I have been at this for 18 years and my first training on field training was a double shooting. For my first few months on the street, we frequently got out of the car and drew our weapons because the environment I worked in was that bad. When I moved down south in patrol, there were beat assignments where we literally took our guns out even when approaching a house on some calls - not just on traffic stops in the neighborhood. Where I work now, taking my gun out is rare, and usually reserved for building searches ... thank God. I have also never been shot at here.

But, I will ALWAYS have my gun ready if I have ANY reason to think that the situation might be hinky. I would much rather explain myself to the driver or passenger, or even to my Chief, than have my wife and my peers shaking their head as they stare down at me in a coffin as they ponder why I did not have my weapon at the ready.

- Carl

 

[LeeHarveyBlotto]

Hiring an attorney for a personnel complaint seems a bit like overkill to me. Why pay $1,500 or more for something your daughter can do for herself??

- Carl

As the only thing to be done at this point is absolutely nothing, this is correct. Come in for a statement over a red light violation? There's more to this story. There has to be.

 

[You Are Guilty]

Hiring an attorney for a personnel complaint seems a bit like overkill to me. Why pay $1,500 or more for something your daughter can do for herself??

- Carl

Because lawyers have bills to pay too?