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Unemployment Appeal - Mental Health

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SilverRabbit

Junior Member
What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? ND

I was laid off due to budget cuts effective July 1st. Filed unemployment claim, was approved, and have been certifying weekly.

I have a mental health condition that requires weekly doctor appointments and is classified by my psychologist as a disability.

August 1 I was offered employment approximately 90 miles from my current home. After consultation with my therapist, who felt the work location would exasperate my mental health, I declined.

August 7th I did my weekly weekly certification. I stated I declined due to pay ($12/HR less than my most recent job) and location (being greater than 90 miles from where I live) Benefits are currently stopped due to a refusal of suitable work. I previously did this type of work but over 3 years ago and have upgraded my education since then.

Will it be likely that I will stop receiving unemployment?

Also I found on the ND website a document that a physician can fill out that states the applicant's suitability for employment and any restrictions. Should I have my psychologist or my primary care fill this out? She is a doctor (Ph.D. not M.D.)


http://www.jobsnd.com/sites/default/files/Medical%20Statement.pdf
 


LdiJ

Senior Member
What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? ND

I was laid off due to budget cuts effective July 1st. Filed unemployment claim, was approved, and have been certifying weekly.

I have a mental health condition that requires weekly doctor appointments and is classified by my psychologist as a disability.

August 1 I was offered employment approximately 90 miles from my current home. After consultation with my therapist, who felt the work location would exasperate my mental health, I declined.

August 7th I did my weekly weekly certification. I stated I declined due to pay ($12/HR less than my most recent job) and location (being greater than 90 miles from where I live) Benefits are currently stopped due to a refusal of suitable work. I previously did this type of work but over 3 years ago and have upgraded my education since then.

Will it be likely that I will stop receiving unemployment?

Also I found on the ND website a document that a physician can fill out that states the applicant's suitability for employment and any restrictions. Should I have my psychologist or my primary care fill this out? She is a doctor (Ph.D. not M.D.)


http://www.jobsnd.com/sites/default/files/Medical%20Statement.pdf

It should have just been a refusal of work due to distance. You muddied the waters when you made it about pay before distance.
 

adjusterjack

Senior Member
No, do not submit that form to the state. You do not want to bring up your medical/mental condition as justification for refusal or work. Not being able to take the job is not good cause and you'll be denied benefits as soon as the state finds out about that and you'll never be able to reverse it.

At least you have a chance with the other two reasons.

The state's position is that you refused suitable work without good cause.

Your position is that the money and the distance were good cause.

North Dakota's unemployment statute (also applies to refusal of new work):

52-06-36. Factors considered in determining suitability of work and good cause for voluntary leaving.
In determining whether or not any work is suitable for an individual and in determining the
existence of good cause for voluntarily leaving the individual's work under subsections 1 and 3
of section 52-06-02, there must be considered among other factors, and in addition to those
enumerated in this section, the degree of risk involved to the individual's health, safety, and
morals, the individual's physical fitness and prior training, the individual's experience and prior
earnings, the length of the individual's unemployment, the individual's prospects for obtaining
work in the individual's customary occupation, the distance of available work from the
individual's residence, and the prospects for obtaining local work. However, any work paying
wages equal to the maximum weekly benefit amount must be determined suitable for an
individual who has filed for and received benefit payments for eighteen consecutive weeks;
provided, that consideration must be given to the degree of risk involved to the individual's
health, safety, morals, the individual's physical fitness, and the distance of the work from the
individual's residence. No work may be deemed suitable and benefits may not be denied under
the North Dakota unemployment compensation law to any otherwise eligible individual for
refusing to accept new work under any of the following conditions:
1. If the position offered is vacant due directly to a strike, lockout, or other labor dispute.
2. If the wages, hours, or other conditions of work offered are substantially less favorable
to the individual than those prevailing for similar work in the locality.
3. If, as a condition of being employed, the individual would be required to join a
company union or to resign from or refrain from joining any bona fide labor organization.

I'm sure you notice that consideration is given to the "risk" to the claimant's health. I don't know what that means but I still think that submitting that form is the kiss of death and you'd be wise to consult an unemployment attorney before you make that kind of move.

There seems to be a little flexibility in there with regard to wages and distance so let's see what the courts have to say.

Here's a woman whose benefits were denied. She claimed distance and other things, none of which were valid.

http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=2317173223660512781&q=unemployment+refusal+of+work+distance&hl=en&as_sdt=4,35

Here's a woman whose claim was denied because she quit because of "stress related medical problems." The court affirmed the denial.

http://www.ndcourts.gov/court/opinions/960006.htm

There was only one that I found that was related to distance and I provided the other as an illustration of the risk involved in refusal of work due to your disability.

With regard to the money you are going to have to show that a reduction of $12 per hour is a substantial hardship. Trouble is, if the net result was a lot more than unemployment paid that might not fly although would also have to consider the increase cost of travel.

The 90 mile commute may give you a better chance but if a lot of people in your area routinely drive that distance, it isn't going to fly.

That you aren't capable of mentally handling a trip like that, well, I don't know. The idea of revealing that makes me nervous.

An unemployment attorney might have access to more case decisions that I have been able to find online. At least get a free consultation about the mental issue.
 

SilverRabbit

Junior Member
Thank you!

I'll wait on the physician letter.

Where I currently live people routinely drive 35 miles to work (one way) to the nearest big city. I would have no issue accepting work there. The job I refused was 90 miles one way.

I'm not surprised the one case was denied. Bismarck and Mandan are on opposite sides of the Missouri River and considered the same metropolitan statistical area.
 

adjusterjack

Senior Member
How much an hour were you making at the last job?

How much was your weekly UI check when you were getting it?

How far was your one way commute on the last job?

In addition to the 90 miles you also have to consider how long the trip will take. You can find that on google maps in the directions option. It gives you the routes and how long they take to drive with light and heavy traffic.

A 90 mile trip might take 90 minutes at a straight 60 mph but if you are averaging 45 mph through some city streets and rush hour traffic it could be over two hours and you'll want to present that data on appeal, too.
 

Chyvan

Member
Benefits are currently stopped due to a refusal of suitable work.

There's a big difference between your benefits being "suspended" while the state investigates a "refusal of work" issue as opposed to getting a determination that you refused suitable work and are disqualified. Did you get a determination? Until you get that, thinking you have to appeal is a little premature. If you did get a determination, type it in. It tells people WHY the state thinks it is suitable. Maybe something is missing that will assist if you actually have to appeal.
 

commentator

Senior Member
I can tell you a whole lot about why they are likely to decide whether it's "suitable" or "unsuitable." And that is the key word in that part that was quoted that said "customary."

In making the suitability/work refusal decisions, they look at what your last job was like. How far were you driving before, if we're going to mention commuting distance being a factor. If you were driving 85 miles each way to the job you had, or 120 miles each way, then when laid off, decide that a job that is 90 miles each way is going to be too far to drive, you more than likely will be found to have refused suitable work.

In other words, what is customary for you? It also has to do with the line of work you're in, and the state, and as you mention, ND is one of those states where long commutes is pretty customary, particularly in construction type work, where you must go where the job is, and frequently there's a lot of empty territory between places where there is anything at all.

But I was always surprised by the number of folks who'd come in and happily announce to us that now they'd been laid off from this job that was in another city, where they'd been driving 60 miles each way to get to it, and they were so sick of commuting, and from now on were never going to take a job more than 10 miles from their home. Reality orientation coming.

Also, pay rates are looked at in the light of two factors, first, what were you making on the last job, and second, how long have you been out of work. If the pay rate of your previous job was quite a bit more than this job you have been offered, and
you have been out of work only say six to eight weeks (some states have a sort of standard "don't bother people with lesser pay rates for about six weeks" policy, some less set) they're probably not going to decide this job you've refused is anywhere near your customary pay rate and you will probably not be considered having refused appropriate work if you don't accept it.

However, this is as I have said before a sliding scale of comparison. According to the federal regs, by the time a claimant had qualified for those old federal extensions they had for a few years back, they were supposed to be willing to accept any salary above minimum wage. Supposed to, though this was not frequently enforced, except in the southeastern states, where they are notoriously not claimant friendly.

But what it comes down to is that as you get further along in your claim, you are supposed to get less and less picky about the salary of that next job. Also, you must consider, as many people forget to, that when you have been working at a place for a long time, you have been given regular increases and bonuses as you became more valuable to your employer. To get another job, even in the same industry in an equivalent setting, you may have to take a wage that is less than what you were making after ten years on the job with your former employer. That's just reasonable.

The closer you get to the end of your claim, the more you should be realizing that this is ALL OVER, no matter whether you've found a job or not, there are no extensions, no need based unemployment program, even if you are on the streets. So you should be concentrating on what you DO want to do, not what you have to take and don't have to take. It doesn't hurt your cause a bit if, when discussing this job offer with the unemployment system, you can mention to them that you have a couple of closer, more reasonably salaried jobs that you're concentrating on, are hoping for offers from, etc. This shows them that you are making an appropriate job search.

Now, on the subject of your mental health and ability to work in a stressful situation. Holy cow!! All I can say is that you must not have mentioned this in any way to the unemployment system when you were laid off and signed up for benefits in the first place. If you now begin putting restrictions on yourself about a previously unmentioned mental health issue and turn down a job with a nice letter from your psychologist that you can't take it because it might "exasperate your mental health" situation, you are practically guaranteeing that you will be slapped with a medical form such as the one you mention finding on line, and the minute you produce that medical form giving you this restriction or that restriction, particularly something so general as something like how you can't take a job with lots of stress involved, you will be almost guaranteed to be taken off your benefits and possibly to be declared overpaid for all the benefits you have received before now.

You simply cannot draw unemployment benefits and restrict yourself to a job that doesn't cause you stress or exacerbate your health conditions. You can't, in fact, put a whole lot of health limitations on what you will and will not accept, particularly if you have been dealing with these health conditions while working your previous job successfully and have been failing to mention that you're restricting your job search to jobs that would be good for you mentally. Kiss of death is certainly accurate! Unemployment is not meant in any way as a disability program for people who are in any way restricted from their usual work.

That part in the law about the job not being a danger to your health and safety means they can't ask a sixty year old long term legal secretary to climb telephone poles. It doesn't mean you don't have to accept a job if you think it would make you nervous or cause your anxiety disorder to kick up.

Not sure there's need for a consultation with an unemployment attorney right now. As chyvan has mentioned, there has been no decision denying benefits or stopping the claim because of refusal of suitable work yet. Right now everything is still pending. The claimant has very limited input into the process. As I said, the best thing the claimant can do right now is assure the unemployment system that they are really looking diligently for more suitable work. Of course during this process, they are continuing to make their weekly certifications and job searches as required, and if the determination is made that they have not refused suitable work, they'll be backpaid for the weeks they've been suspended.
 
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SilverRabbit

Junior Member
How much an hour were you making at the last job?

$30

How much was your weekly UI check when you were getting it?
$547

How far was your one way commute on the last job?

4 blocks

In addition to the 90 miles you also have to consider how long the trip will take. You can find that on google maps in the directions option. It gives you the routes and how long they take to drive with light and heavy traffic.

A 90 mile trip might take 90 minutes at a straight 60 mph but if you are averaging 45 mph through some city streets and rush hour traffic it could be over two hours and you'll want to present that data on appeal, too.

I mapped out my route and it would be about an hour and forty five minutes.
 

SilverRabbit

Junior Member
In regards to the mental health.

My mental health is well managed at this time. The concern of the therapist was the location of the job was away from established support systems, family and in a area of North Dakota that is not conducive to single females.
 

SilverRabbit

Junior Member
There's a big difference between your benefits being "suspended" while the state investigates a "refusal of work" issue as opposed to getting a determination that you refused suitable work and are disqualified. Did you get a determination? Until you get that, thinking you have to appeal is a little premature. If you did get a determination, type it in. It tells people WHY the state thinks it is suitable. Maybe something is missing that will assist if you actually have to appeal.


No payment was issued for the week ending 08/06/2016 for the following reason(s):
•Benefit payments are currently being held until a decision is made on the below issue(s) . No payments can be made until you respond to any requests for information and all issues on your claim are resolved. Issues are worked in the order they are received. Fact finding questions may be mailed to the address on file unless you have chosen to receive this information electronically through the E Notification option. You may respond to any requests for information through the UI ICE website. Sign up for E Notifications on the UI ICE website to receive same day notifications of outstanding items you need to complete. Select the E Alerts tab from the main menu and follow the prompts. You may monitor your adjudication progress through your UI ICE account by clicking on the My Claim Info tab off the main menu and selecting certification/payment. During the adjudication process please continue to complete all unemployment requirements.
•Issue 3 : Suitable Work - You refused an offer of employment that was suitable based on your past employment history.
 

Proserpina

Senior Member
In regards to the mental health.

My mental health is well managed at this time. The concern of the therapist was the location of the job was away from established support systems, family and in a area of North Dakota that is not conducive to single females.

Which areas are and are not conducive to single females? Which criteria were used to make that designation?

(I used to live in ND and I'm genuinely curious)
 

commentator

Senior Member
Long sigh here. Repeat myself. As we pointed out, and the letter says, your benefits are being HELD until all decisions are made. That means that you need to provide them with information about why this job was not suitable concerning the distance you would have to travel (based on the distance you were traveling for your last job) and the pay range of this job (based on what you were being paid on your last job.) And as I said, that depends on many factors related, including how long you have been out of work. This does not mean you have been cut off, denied or anything like this.

Cooperate with the investigation, Keep making your certifications.

Now, if you truly want to stop drawing benefits right now, and find yourself overpaid for every single penny you have been given up to this point, you just go ahead with the whole "bad for my mental health" deal. Have your psychologist with a doctorate write you an explanatory letter about your delicate condition. Turn in one of the health forms with some restrictions about what jobs you can accept.

There is nothing in unemployment law that enables you to coddle yourself mentally in your job selections. This is not a disability program in any way. Do not be stupid enough to make yourself ineligible for any and all past and future benefits by bringing your mental health and well being into the mix here where it has not been a factor heretofore and you have a pretty good chance of not losing your benefits due to this job refusal anyway.

I repeat, be telling them what jobs you have been applying for, what you are looking at, hoping for, instead of arguing about what you should and should not have to accept and that's going to be much more reassuring to them and likely to get you a favorable decision than your idea about coming up with a doctor's note saying you are not physically/mentally able to take this job.
 
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LdiJ

Senior Member
Long sigh here. Repeat myself. As we pointed out, and the letter says, your benefits are being HELD until all decisions are made. That means that you need to provide them with information about why this job was not suitable concerning the distance you would have to travel (based on the distance you were traveling for your last job) and the pay range of this job (based on what you were being paid on your last job.) And as I said, that depends on many factors related, including how long you have been out of work. This does not mean you have been cut off, denied or anything like this.

Cooperate with the investigation, Keep making your certifications.

Now, if you truly want to stop drawing benefits right now, and find yourself overpaid for every single penny you have been given up to this point, you just go ahead with the whole "bad for my mental health" deal. Have your psychologist with a doctorate write you an explanatory letter about your delicate condition. Turn in one of the health forms with some restrictions about what jobs you can accept.

There is nothing in unemployment that enables you to coddle yourself mentally in your job selections. This is not a disability program in any way. Do not be stupid enough to make yourself ineligible for any and all benefits by bringing your mental health and well being into the mix here where it has not been a factor heretofore and you have a pretty good chance of not losing your benefits due to this job refusal anyway. I repeat, be telling them what jobs you have been applying for, what you are looking at, hoping for, and that's going to be much more reassuring to them and likely to get you a favorable decision than your idea about coming up with a doctor's note saying you are not physically/mentally able to take this job.

I am going to disagree with the bolded. If someone applies for the requisite number of jobs per week but deliberately chooses not to apply for jobs that are too far away, too underpaid, or in some manner coddles themselves mentally then they never have to risk turning down a job that is inappropriate for them and therefore does not risk losing unemployment benefits.
 

commentator

Senior Member
If you are making the requisite number of job searches as required, you can coddle yourself all you want to, but when you start trying to argue that any job you did or did not apply for would be bad for your mental well being for example because it is in a stressful area for women, is not close to your established support systems, etc. and any time you start putting restrictions on what you will and won't accept and trying to explain that to the unemployment system, you are in grave danger of disqualifying yourself.

In order to be eligible for unemployment insurance you must state that you are fully able, fully available, and actively seeking an equivalent job. That's in the federal language. Any time you mention health issues, either mental or physical, and start putting physical or mental restrictions on your job availability you start putting your claim at serious risk with no need to do so. This job is not sounding at all suitable for this person due to distance and salary issues. Why mess up everything by bringing in something that is going to be a huge issue and may very well disqualify her from all benefits?

I am an experienced dealer with people who want to be absurdly honest about their job preferences (as in the lady who insisted she could not work a night shift job because her husband couldn't sleep if she was not in the bed beside him!)
I finally got her to say that if she was offered such a job, she would "consider" it before refusing it outright. (And by the way, in the area she was in, there was no chance in the world she was going to find any equivalent job on the night shift that she might be offered!) And of course, one should NEVER apply for a job they do not want, do not think they can do, do not think their mental health would be benefitted by.
 

SilverRabbit

Junior Member
Prosperina-

Running the risk of getting a whole sidetrack backlash....I'm speaking of Western ND by the oilfields. While activity has slowed in these areas with the price of oil there are places that can be very dangerous.
 

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