Visitation Allowed but being discouraged by other parent

[EstrangedMom]

What is the name of your state? Oregon

**disclaimer - LONG post!**

First, I will say that I know where I've contributed to this mess. My ex was emotionally and physically abusive throughout our marriage and continued to stir things up post-divorce by getting to me through the kids (my ultimate weakness.) As a natural result, I've developed such hatred for him that ultimately, I could not bite my tongue about his socially unacceptable behavior around the kids any longer (he has more issues than being abusive with me). Of course, this backfired on me because it hurt the kids to hear these things about their dad (even though they are well aware of his character... just not something they want thrown in their face.)

What I'm faced with now is that the kids, who are both teenagers, have chosen to live with their dad full time. However, since they "moved" to his house in April, they have not exercised their visitation with me and I have seen them each only twice. The kids have been given full rights to make all decisions and any negative feelings they have towards me are being fostered by their father, his parents and "the system." Up until April, we each had 50/50 parenting time with alternating full-week visitation.

Additional info: Dad has not worked in 3.5 years and lives completely off money provided by his parents. He has a history of road rage and violence and was even arrested at his front doorstep last year in front of the kids after a hit and run accident where he damaged another person's car. Dad is also a "recovering addict" and spent the month of December in a nationally upscale drug re-hab facility (also paid for by mom and dad) and is in a 94-week (yep - 94 weeks) outpatient rehab program. He was and is being treated for cocaine and marijuana addiction, depression, obsessive compulsive disorder and anger management. Dad also lives near the kids' school and friends.

The kids feel closer to their dad but are also worried about his health (he's over 100 pounds overweight and has sleep apnea), potential drug relapse, continued unemployment, etc., etc. There are also few restrictions in his home with respect to bedtime and/or curfew, as well as maintaining any normal level of housekeeping (if they were babies - the health department would be there in a flash).

My frustration is that even though it's been recommended by the court advocate for the children, the family counselor and my attorney that the children remain with their dad for now, but maintain regular contact with me, there has been no such attempt to do so. I'm forced to remain passive and not force visitation, for fear it will further damage our relationship. Further, the family counselor informed me that "family counseling is a bad idea right now."

I just don't get how dad's house can be healthy, given all the issues he has. The kids don't like the rules at my house (like having lights out by 10, no phone calls after 9, clean their rooms and the biggie - "Take off your shoes when you come in the house." Otherwise, I have a job, nice husband, go to school and keep my nose clean. It's not enough. So what the heck can I do? It seems my only option is to just give up and cut the kids loose.

 

[Zigner]

What do your orders actually SAY about visitation?
Honestly, everything you listed sounds like differences in parenting styles.

 

[wileybunch]

There's too many missing pieces. What does your order(s) say with regard to visitation? Does it literally say it's the children's choice? Is the counseling court ordered? If you haven't had regular contact with the kids, how are you speaking of situations currently in your ex's home?

You know, the kids may not like the rules at your house, but more than that, they didn't like having their self esteem driven through with the large battering ram when you put down their dad (ie. 1/2 of them -- or more if they identify with their dad, have traits like him, etc.). You will never be able to truly say "it's just because I have rules".

 

[EstrangedMom]

What do your orders actually SAY about visitation?
Honestly, everything you listed sounds like differences in parenting styles.

The original visitation orders have remained "Status Quo" and my attorney has filed an order as such. Existing visitation is still 50/50, but I have not forced my kids to see me given the current situation.

Yes - I realize I've damaged the kids' self esteem by losing my tongue. However, is it right that I'm not being allowed any contact with them to attempt to repair and rebuild our relationship?

Besides marrying their father, I regret being passive at the time of our divorce and allowing him this much visitation to begin with. I had a restraining order against him and the court would have granted me full custody and visitation had I requested it. I was afraid of my ex and what he might do but also did what I thought was best for my kids at the time. I allowed them full access to their dad, which also allowed them to remain at their current school. It has always been impressed upon them that I was the part time parent and that my opinion and direction should always be overruled by their father's. That too has diminished my relationship with my kids.

 

[penelope10]

The original visitation orders have remained "Status Quo" and my attorney has filed an order as such. Existing visitation is still 50/50, but I have not forced my kids to see me given the current situation.

Yes - I realize I've damaged the kids' self esteem by losing my tongue. However, is it right that I'm not being allowed any contact with them to attempt to repair and rebuild our relationship?

Besides marrying their father, I regret being passive at the time of our divorce and allowing him this much visitation to begin with. I had a restraining order against him and the court would have granted me full custody and visitation had I requested it. I was afraid of my ex and what he might do but also did what I thought was best for my kids at the time. I allowed them full access to their dad, which also allowed them to remain at their current school. It has always been impressed upon them that I was the part time parent and that my opinion and direction should always be overruled by their father's. That too has diminished my relationship with my kids.

So there is nothing in the order about the kids having a choice about complying correct?

 

[EstrangedMom]

So there is nothing in the order about the kids having a choice about complying correct?

No - there currently has been no change made to the original order, recorded in 2001. The kids were still very young then.

Basically, the concensus recommendation is "don't force the kids to do anything they don't want to right now - it may upset them." I understand that... but is it really better for them NOT to talk to me and try to smooth things out? My fear is that the longer they're in their father's care and their negative feelings are being fostered, the less chance they have in getting back on track with me. Kids don't understand this undermining process but I would hope that adults would.

 

[Silverplum]

No - there currently has been no change made to the original order, recorded in 2001. The kids were still very young then.

Basically, the concensus recommendation is "don't force the kids to do anything they don't want to right now - it may upset them." I understand that... but is it really better for them NOT to talk to me and try to smooth things out? My fear is that the longer they're in their father's care and their negative feelings are being fostered, the less chance they have in getting back on track with me. Kids don't understand this undermining process but I would hope that adults would.

Karma, meet EstrangedMom.

It sounds like your X is doing to you precisely as you did unto him.

 

[EstrangedMom]

Karma, meet EstrangedMom.

It sounds like your X is doing to you precisely as you did unto him.

Okay - so I screwed up and I admit it. What parent hasn't made mistakes?? Does this make me such a bad mother that I should be excluded from my kids' lives?

BTW... you're assuming that my ex has never said a bad word about me. Totally wrong. He has said and insinuated horrible things about me that are either untrue, or are things only two adults should discuss (i.e., intimate relationship details). I won't write about my life's history with this man but I will say he is very bitter that I left him. He never thought I'd have the courage to leave. He ripped my self esteem apart to maintain control. I see him manipulating my kids the same way and it's driven me crazy trying to keep quiet when I saw the tracks being laid. He battered me in front of my kids but that doesn't seem to matter to anyone. Dad is forgiven for everything while I'm chastised for breaking silence.

 

[Silverplum]

Okay - so I screwed up and I admit it. What parent hasn't made mistakes?? Does this make me such a bad mother that I should be excluded from my kids' lives?

I didn't say that. Nor did I write it. Don't put words in my mouth.

I was just pointing out the obvious. It's a skill of mine.

BTW... you're assuming that my ex has never said a bad word about me. Totally wrong. He has said and insinuated horrible things about me that are either untrue, or are things only two adults should discuss (i.e., intimate relationship details). I won't write about my life's history with this man but I will say he is very bitter that I left him. He never thought I'd have the courage to leave. He ripped my self esteem apart to maintain control. I see him manipulating my kids the same way and it's driven me crazy trying to keep quiet when I saw the tracks being laid. He battered me in front of my kids but that doesn't seem to matter to anyone. Dad is forgiven for everything while I'm chastised for breaking silence.

This is what I meant by "karma." You did it to him, he did it to you. You two have been unkind, taking out your divorce emotions on your children. Pipers will be paid.

You can file contempt on Dad for not providing the children for your parenting time. Of course, you'd have to prove you had showed up at the appointed time/place and been refused.

Really, IMO, this is a parenting issue far more than a legal one.

 

[wileybunch]

No - there currently has been no change made to the original order, recorded in 2001. The kids were still very young then.

Basically, the concensus recommendation is "don't force the kids to do anything they don't want to right now - it may upset them." I understand that... but is it really better for them NOT to talk to me and try to smooth things out? My fear is that the longer they're in their father's care and their negative feelings are being fostered, the less chance they have in getting back on track with me. Kids don't understand this undermining process but I would hope that adults would.

OK, that sheds a different light on things (though I agree this is karma). Nevertheless, the kids should be able to be part of both parents' lives even if they have now switched which parent they are being manipulated by. Does your existing court order make sense or do you need to make a motion to have it changed? Have you attempted to assert visitation rights that are in the existing CO if they do make sense? Pursue that and don't let up. If the existing CO doesn't make sense, make a motion to modify custody/visitation. Be reasonable, but don't accept the philosophy that it's better not to "force" kids. That's total BS. It's too bad both their Mom and their Dad have decided to use them as pawns. Maybe they'll end up hating both of you, their future spouses they've never met, and others b/c of all this. It is never too late to try to make things right, though.

 

[penelope10]

OK, that sheds a different light on things (though I agree this is karma). Nevertheless, the kids should be able to be part of both parents' lives even if they have now switched which parent they are being manipulated by. Does your existing court order make sense or do you need to make a motion to have it changed? Have you attempted to assert visitation rights that are in the existing CO if they do make sense? Pursue that and don't let up. If the existing CO doesn't make sense, make a motion to modify custody/visitation. Be reasonable, but don't accept the philosophy that it's better not to "force" kids. That's total BS. It's too bad both their Mom and their Dad have decided to use them as pawns. Maybe they'll end up hating both of you, their future spouses they've never met, and others b/c of all this. It is never too late to try to make things right, though.

I suggest counseling as well.

 

[EstrangedMom]

I didn't say that. Nor did I write it. Don't put words in my mouth.

I was just pointing out the obvious. It's a skill of mine.

This is what I meant by "karma." You did it to him, he did it to you. You two have been unkind, taking out your divorce emotions on your children. Pipers will be paid.

You can file contempt on Dad for not providing the children for your parenting time. Of course, you'd have to prove you had showed up at the appointed time/place and been refused.

Really, IMO, this is a parenting issue far more than a legal one.

This is where blogging and texting fails - my comments (or rather questions) were really retorical, rather than specifically aimed at you.

This is just as much a legal issue as it is a parenting issue because my ex has always done what he wanted, regardless of what our written agreement was. I have stuck to the plan but have been too passive in enforcing it. Once the ex checked into rehab and got out his violins and pity choir, I lost my cool and decided my silence had been in effect, condoning his reckless behavior. I knew but could not prove the drug involvement (and believe me - I tried getting police involved.)

There is, and never will be "co-parenting" with this man, as he has gotten through life by bullying everyone in his path - including his parents.

I'll buy into the Karma analogy to some extent; but not in its entirety. I'm sure the ex is getting his dose as well (how would you like to be 48 and rely on your parents for all your living expenses?) I'm sure that's not how he imagined his life when he was younger either. We all make our beds.

 

[EstrangedMom]

OK, that sheds a different light on things (though I agree this is karma). Nevertheless, the kids should be able to be part of both parents' lives even if they have now switched which parent they are being manipulated by. Does your existing court order make sense or do you need to make a motion to have it changed? Have you attempted to assert visitation rights that are in the existing CO if they do make sense? Pursue that and don't let up. If the existing CO doesn't make sense, make a motion to modify custody/visitation. Be reasonable, but don't accept the philosophy that it's better not to "force" kids. That's total BS. It's too bad both their Mom and their Dad have decided to use them as pawns. Maybe they'll end up hating both of you, their future spouses they've never met, and others b/c of all this. It is never too late to try to make things right, though.

Yeah - the kids will probably eventually tell both of us to jump off a tall building. For now, I'm only going to ask for some minor changes to the CO. I'll ask that the kids be allowed to see me every other weekend, but not forced (which is pretty much what's happening now). And I agree that it IS total BS that the kids aren't evenutally forced to exercise their visitation with me. They don't understand that this only creates further distance between us. The longer they avoid contact with me, the more difficult it will be to see me when they do come around.

Oh - I forgot... my ex actually dictated letters to the kids at the beginning of this quarrel and had them write all sorts of crap about why they didn't want to live with me, then closed by saying "I just want to live with my dad full-time, in a more positive environment." but not one example of what made it better. The structure and wording was clearly dictated. I don't care how much I hate my ex, I would have NEVER subjected my kids to something like that and I would think doing this has left my kids with some level of guilt.