Was I terminated with cause or laid off?

[laidoffithink]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? New York, New York

A little over a year a go I found myself no longer employed at the company where I had spent several years working. During the exit interview / meeting they said something along the lines of you are being terminated with cause for reasons that "you know" without telling me what they were (yes I know that makes it sounds clear but what I signed confuses things.) I was given severance, based on my time worked there, allowed to collect unemployment and given no reason for my termination. The "Separation of Employment" agreement that I signed states "Neither by offering to make this agreement nor by making this agreement does either party admit any failure of performance, wrongdoing or violation of law." I feel that if I was terminated with cause then they would not include that clause and state why I was terminated in my separation agreement. Also I was the 5th person let go in about 2 months. Can someone help clear this up for me?

Thanks for any input.

 

[commentator]

I think that you were laid off. I think you should quit thinking about it and just accept it as such. If they had terminated you for cause, and they had told the unemployment system that, then you would not have gotten to draw unemployment benefits. Whether or not they had a good reason, or felt they had a good reason, they let you go with severance and unemployment benefits, which looks like a lay off, walks like a lay off, quacks like a lay off.....you know. That they'd let several other people go just reinforces that they needed to thin the ranks. What they asked you to sign sounds like some sort of standard "I agree to this" sort of paperwork that some companies like to get people to sign, with the idea that it discourages them from thinking they could sue the employer. They couldn't anyway, in most cases.

There is no profit in arguing about whether or not you were terminated righteously, or with some cause, or something like that, because an employer can, to meet the needs the business, as they determine them, legally lay off, let go or fire anyone at any time in your state. It's called "at will" employment. That they gave you severance and allowed you to draw unemployment by telling the system that you were laid off was something they elected to do, and you should take it and move on, telling everyone you were laid off.

 

[laidoffithink]

Thanks for the response. I am not looking to sue or try and say I was unjustly fired. I was happy when it was over to be honest. My concern comes when talking to possible future employers. I want to be truthful and explain what happened as a layoff. But there was always some doubt in my mind that they might think I was lying if they call the company. The wires seemed to be crossed when it comes to what was said vs. what was signed. Luckily I also have a good reference from my old manager.

 

[justalayman]

want to know the difference between layoff and termination? They are spelled completely different but ultimately they are the same thing.


Using some commonly accepted definitions, you were terminated. Layoffs tend to suggest a separation based on business health. Your separation was for some reasons unique to you. That is a termination. Given the exit interview, you were even told you were being terminated, for cause no less.


"

Neither by offering to make this agreement nor by making this agreement does either party admit any failure of performance, wrongdoing or violation of law."

that does not change the reason you were terminated. It says neither party admits to (any of the mentioned items) It does not mean they don't believe you failed in some way, only that you aren't admitting to that failure.



what you should do is contact your former employer and ask them how they are reporting your separation to your prospective employers. They may not tell you anything but they may.

 

[cbg]

Well, if you want the HR definitions, every time you leave it's a termination. If you quit, it's a voluntary termination. If your leaving is instigated by the employer, it's an involuntary termination.

Involuntary terms include firings, layoffs and RIF's. A layoff means there is a reasonable chance you'll be called back to work. Not a guarantee, but a reasonable chance. A recent addition to employment vocabulary is being RIF'd, which translates to, we don't have any work for you and we don't anticipate having any work for you, but you're being let go for reasons not attributable to your work or your conduct - we just don't have work for you/money to pay you. While technically all of these are firings, with the possible exception of the layoff, "firing" is such a loaded word that HR finally had to come up with some alternate terms so people would stop having heart attacks over semantics, despite our attempts as a profession to explain that a firing under those terms was not the kiss of death.

Commentator will probably have some still different definitions for unemployment purposes.

 

[laidoffithink]

Thanks for the responses. It was a small company. They never said why I was terminated with cause. Nor did they give a reason, granted, in New York they do not have to. I had no verbal or written warnings. The clause in the contract states that both they and I do not admit to any problems while working for them be it performance or otherwise. If terminated for performance then they would have said so. They also could have fought my unemployment and not paid severance. After I was terminated another 4 people were also let go. So in total about 10 of us were let go.

 

[commentator]

That this company provided information that ultimately allowed this person to draw unemployment benefits meant that they likely said it was some type of "not the person's fault" termination. True, all leavings are terminations. Also true, "terminated" has come to have a slightly bad connotation in our common usage.

If they had in any way indicated to the unemployment system that it was a termination for cause, the whole issue would've been explored a lot more fully. And since a former employee receiving unemployment benefits ultimately costs the company money, (which giving a reference of any kind does not) they're more likely, in my mind, anyhow, to spill the negatives involved in the termination, if there are any, to the unemployment system than they are to a future employer.

And many employers worry about references, will provide very little information except dates of employment. They're not likely to sit down and have a long time conversation about the former employee's bad attitude or whatever with another prospective employer. While it is not illegal to give a bad reference, it is something that many employers worry about doing.

So I would say this person is perfectly safe to move forward saying they were RIF'ed, or let go, or whatever they want to call it, without re-contacting the company, and without worrying unduly about being "perfectly honest" with future employers. To me, after you have received severance and a clean claim for unemployment, digging up bones concerning what you were told by your employer on the day you were let go would be foolish and unproductive. You've moved on. They doubtless have also.

Some employers just cannot resist taking a mean little jab at someone. I knew of many persons who were RIFed or let go or terminated at the end of even a clearly defined temporary job or a seasonal job who carried away a little mean comment by the person who told them goodbye that they were 'not fast enough' or "didn't fit in" or "just were not the type person we're looking for," along with a company issued separation notice that said "reduction in workforce" or "job duration ended" or something like that.

 

[cbg]

granted, in New York they do not have to

They do not have to in any state. Not at the point of term.

In a very, very, very small percentage of states, UPON WRITTEN REQUEST the employer is required to provide a "service letter" which includes, among other things, the reason for termination.