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TG84

Junior Member
What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Minnesota

My employer just disciplined me for something I was not the responsible party for but since I am in a leadership role they say I am equally as responsible even though I had no knowledge of the event. They have told me I have to move to another shift (which conflicts with my family and school schedule in a way it is not possible to do. Going from a 2pm to 10:30pm shift to a 6am to 2:30pm shift.) and they have also demoted me from a leadership position down to a basic employee resulting in about a $4/hr loss in wages. They are telling me I have to accept or I am voluntarily quitting, but I feel this is unjust and cannot be right. I think they are trying to bully me into not claiming unemployment and I need to know if I am going to be entitled to it under this situation so I can decide how I should proceed.

I am open to suggestions on how this should be handled.
 


Ladyback1

Senior Member
What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Minnesota

My employer just disciplined me for something I was not the responsible party for but since I am in a leadership role they say I am equally as responsible even though I had no knowledge of the event. They have told me I have to move to another shift (which conflicts with my family and school schedule in a way it is not possible to do. Going from a 2pm to 10:30pm shift to a 6am to 2:30pm shift.) and they have also demoted me from a leadership position down to a basic employee resulting in about a $4/hr loss in wages. They are telling me I have to accept or I am voluntarily quitting, but I feel this is unjust and cannot be right. I think they are trying to bully me into not claiming unemployment and I need to know if I am going to be entitled to it under this situation so I can decide how I should proceed.

I am open to suggestions on how this should be handled.

Wow...seems like serious consequences. Was this your first write-up? How significant was the screw-up?
 

Chyvan

Member
I need to know if I am going to be entitled to it under this situation

You might be. You have a lot to work with. In effect, you are being fired from the job you had, and are being offered "new work." Therefore, there are two issues to decide. Were you fired from the job you had for misconduct? You seem to think you were blameless. However, if the employer can prove misconduct, you will be denied UI on that basis.

If it's determined that you didn't commit misconduct, the next step is to determine if you refused "suitable work." If you've been in your current position a sufficient amount of time, you are entitled to a canvassing period to look of a job that is about as good or better than you had before using your highest skill set. So there is a good chance the new job is unsuitable because you didn't even have a chance to explore the labor market yet because this is all happening in the span of seconds.

In some cases the UI people won't see it this way and they'll look for a "good cause" quit. In your case (I'll list in the order I think is most relevant), a decrease in pay, a demotion, and a schedule change. For pay cuts, it's not the $4/hr you're losing, it's the percentage that counts. The threshhold is usually 20% or more. So if the percentage is 19.9%, I'd be relucant because I wouldn't count on anyone making the decision to want to round up. Things are additive so you could have a lower percentage of salary reduction of 20% if the demotion and schedule change are seen as sufficiently adverse.

Some things you have to do or you'll have problems: There is going to be a burden on you to prove things. Before you walk out the door, you want solid proof that these adverse changes will be happening to you. While you can tell your story to UI, you can't count on the employer admitting anything. They might very well say, "she quit," and leave out all the details that caused you to quit, and you might not be believed. You have to try to "adjust your grievance." You'll want to make an effort to get the employer not to do these things to you. You can ask the employer to change their mind, but then you have the proof problem that you made the attempt, so try to use an email. All the employer need to do is respond, "we will not be changing our mind," and you now have proof you made the effort. At that point, you've done what you can, and you're free to leave. Just be certain to act fast. You can't do the new job for even a second or it's treated as acceptance of the new terms and conditions of employment, and your good cause quit or discharge/refusal of work has just gone out the window.
 

commentator

Senior Member
I strongly advise you to keep the job, and start looking for another one while you are still working. Because I don't know how long you've been there, and I don't know how much you make, but for the most part, unemployment insurance IF it were to be approved for this quit, would be much less than you could make working, even with a 4 dollar an hour reduction in your pay.

It would take a long time to get it approved even if it is and unlike Chyvan, I do not think you have a whole lot to work with regarding getting approved. It is what it is. You quit due to a demotion. The demotion was a result of disciplinary actions being taken against you. That's a big kettle of fish, and would take as much as a couple of months to fry out in the unemployment appeals process. If you are approved, you'd be backpaid for the weeks since you filed as long as you have made certifications for them, eventually. But it's not a sure thing you'd be approved by any means, and like I said, it's a long time without anything at all coming in.

If you quit your job in this circumstance, they do not look at it as being that the employer fired you from one job and offered you another. The employer is always free to change his employees hours and shifts and pay rates without sanction "for the good of the business." They do not have to prove you had actual misconduct before they can change your job assignment, mess with your shifts or cut your pay.

It's just going to come down to that they, for disciplinary reasons, decided to demote you, cut your pay based on the demotion, and change your shift as the new job required a different shift. You decided not to accept this change, but to quit the job instead. The burden of proof that you had a valid reason to quit the job is on you all the way here.

And then, if best case scenario, you got approved for unemployment, you'd have to be looking for another job like crazy anyhow, because at the end of 26 weeks or sometimes less, no more at the present time without federal extensions, you'd be out of unemployment benefits. This is regardless of whether or not you still need them, haven't found another good job yet. The most you could draw a week is somewhere in the neighborhood of $650 a week for 26 weeks. Then it stops.

Take your time to "explore the labor market" and see if you can replace this job where they have done you wrong without quitting. That's my best advice when I look at this.

I agree, if you are going to quit rather than take the demotion, then do not work even one minute at the new rate and the new job. If you do, then that is considered your new position, regardless of how long you've worked it, and your pay rate is the rate of the new job, and you don't have a prayer of being approved for unemployment if you quit it because you are making less than you were before.

When a person quits their job, in unemployment insurance, the burden of proof is upon them. They must show they had a valid job related reason to quit the job. A dramatic reduction in hours or pay, especially if it causes the loss of benefits and is obviously done in an attempt to get the person to quit, is the best case scenario for being approved when quitting the job.

Technically there is no absolute threshold where if it's 20% of your former wages you'd still be making or less you can quit it and be approved but if it's 21% you can't be approved. That's just a sort of guideline, but a lot of other factors are considered, as well.

But a warning here. Changing your shift, which does not agree without your own personal schedule is not really one of those things they look at. And they're not going to be terribly sympathetic about your losing the shift it was most convenient for you to work, particularly in a situation where your changes were related to discipline, so don't count on that being a factor in your approval or denial.
 
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TG84

Junior Member
First off this will be the first time I have ever been disciplined in my entire work history. I have been with this company for 3 years. They have put me on almost any committee they can Safety,planning,first responders etc...

The incidents came down to a picture that got shown on break that was pretty crude. Several weeks later a employee with an agenda spread the rumor of the picture with many exaggerations and a investigation was done. The people responsible of course denied everything. I when asked said I have seen them sit together on breaks and chuckle about things on their phones, but I had never seen anything inappropriate. I was disciplined for being responsible for it, because "You are the leader of this shift and you should have been more aware of this issue." My own argument is that it is absurd to expect me to babysit everyone on their break and its unreasonable to think i should be walking around inspecting everything people look at on their phones. Most people go to break and get on their phones here so how am I to expect anything is out of the ordinary.

The people that were rumored to have done this denied it and have avoided any discipline, but yet I who was completely unaware of this thing have been slapped with taking the axe for it. So they moved me from a 2pm to 10:30pm shift to a 6am-2:30pm shift. They have completely removed me from any leadership at all and have just made me a basic employee and dropped my pay like i said $4/hr. I have not yet responded to them as I wanted to see my options, but they want me to start monday. The biggest problem is how can I effectively return to work that doesn't agree with my schedule at all, at a great loss of pay, and after they have made it known I was the responsible person and have been dealt with etc... this rumor has already spread through work that i have done all of this and I have received plenty of texts from concerned friends that work there. They are putting me in a department with no growth potential, and at a rate less than is reasonable for that department. They have also let me know it will be 5+ years before I am even considered for advancement. They have also took away 2 1/4's of my profit sharing (about 1200 each 1/4) and 3 months of my incentive pay (300-500 a month).

So that is where I sit. They say on the suspension paperwork that I was disciplined for the spreading of a inappropriate picture and that a employee who heard of it later felt harassed. When I spoke to them at the time they said I was guilty my propagating the issue, because I didn't see it and stop it.
 

commentator

Senior Member
You must decide this immediately, do not return to work Monday if you're going to quit. They have not fired you, they are trying to "force a quit" for whatever reason they are wanting to get rid of you. That's not illegal.

How you could return to work at this new position is an economic question, not a pride question. You just go in, keep your head down, behave professionally and politely, and use them as a source of income until you find another job. Hang on until they fire you. Then it is certainly not your choice, and you'll very likely be eligible for unemployment, and didn't have a choice to work or quit.

But as I said, work at that less good job one minute, then quit, and you'll be denied unemployment, almost sure thing. But though you may prevail in an unemployment hearing several months from now and receive benefits, and yes, what they've done to you is unfair and pretty terrible of them, I'd still consider my options very carefully. A pay cut is still usually more than unemployment benefits. A non-supervisory job in a department with no chance of advancement is still a better option than total unemployment, (even if you are drawing benefits) still a better place to look for other jobs from than being unemployed, in my opinion.

This is something only you will be able to decide. If you do decide to quit, file for unemployment benefits on Monday instead of going to work, (notice to the employer is a courtesy, not a requirement, and you can file for your first week of unemployment even when you are going to receive another paycheck, as long as you do not work during the week you file for without reporting it. You also cannot serve a waiting week until you have already filed the claim, so don't delay.

And it won't hurt to show them documentation of the job you were to be demoted to if you have those on email or anywhere else, but proof is not something you have to have. They listen to both sides of the story, and decide who's telling the truth if it appears the stories vary widely and somebody must be wrong. But I don't imagine they'll pursue the old "We really fired him!" or "He just up and quit" successfully, even if you don't have exact documentation of the new position's details. Be sure to say you always did your job to the best of your abilities and you had no idea they were going to blame you for the situation with your supervisees, that you tried to work it out before quitting, and this job they have now offered you is the end result, and it is the only option they gave you other than leaving. Then the unemployment system will go into the suitability of the job, will talk to the employer, and then will issue an initial decision, either approving or denying benefits. At this point, either party can appeal the decision, asking for a telephone or in person hearing to make a second decision. As I said, it's a drawn out and uncertain process, but good luck to you, whether you decide to go with it our not.
 
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Chyvan

Member
If you quit your job in this circumstance, they do not look at it as being that the employer fired you from one job and offered you another. The employer is always free to change his employees hours and shifts and pay rates without sanction "for the good of the business." They do not have to prove you had actual misconduct before they can change your job assignment, mess with your shifts or cut your pay.

The US DOL has two publications that disagree with you: http://wdr.doleta.gov/directives/attach/UIPL41-98.cfm and http://www.ows.doleta.gov/dmstree/uipl/uipl_pre75/uipl_984.htm

I lived an adverse change and as long it was being adjudicated as a quit, I was getting no where. When I submitted the UIPLs at a board of review appeal the decision treated it exactly the way the US DOL said it needed to be handled. It became a nondisqualifying discharge and a refusal of unsuitable work. I'll admit that it took a long time, but when I went through this, I didn't know about the UIPLs. Had I had this information earlier, I could have made a much better showing earlier in the process.

While the person wants to quit over the schedule change and it's a bit weak, there are other stronger reasons. I think the next thing that happens will be attendance/tardiness issues that will be misconduct with no UI. If the person needs to leave, this is the time to do it.
 

cbg

I'm a Northern Girl
I'll back commentator's 30 plus years direct experience against your instance of prevailing in your own claim any day of the week, though. And the US DOL is not the regulatory agency for a state unemployment issue.
 

commentator

Senior Member
I agree that if the OP is going to quit, this is the time to do it.

In most cases, there is no room for somebody to come in quoting law to the people who do it for a living in their own particular state's system. They know the law pretty thoroughly, they've heard it all before, and they do not expect their claimants or their employers to be as familiar as they are with these laws. So they will ask the questions they need to ask to determine nature of and reasons for the unemployment, and the suitability of jobs offered.

They will not need you to tell them which laws and regulations will apply or how these laws are to be applied in your particular case. And there's no way you can stand outside the situation and say that if you argue this and quote this DOL regulation it should be approved. You do not tell the system what they're going to call the termination or which regulations they're going to look at. You don't get to decide this.

I try to always speak in very general terms, as we do not have access to everything about individual claims here and if there is one thing I have been trained to believe, it is that every claim, every set of circumstances is unique.
 
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Chyvan

Member
the US DOL is not the regulatory agency for a state unemployment issue.

The issue is the direct result of a federal statute and the interpretation of the agency responsible for it's enforcement is to be given great weight.
 

cbg

I'm a Northern Girl
Okay, if you want to believe that the Federal government oversees state unemployment issues and supersedes state's right to set their own agendas, you go right ahead and believe it.
 

Chyvan

Member
Read the UIPLs. The federal statute that was required to be placed into all the states' UI laws as part of the conformity requirement is right there. A state can't just arbitrarily give less protection. This is one of the few areas in UI law that the federal government does have a say in.
 

cbg

I'm a Northern Girl
I'm still not seeing how a denial of benefits in this case would be considered "less protection". I agree that IF he wants any chance at all of receiving benefits, he needs to quit now. But it is by no means certain, in my book, that if he quits now he'll get benefits. And you may consider that "less protection" if you want to - I do not. Not as an across the board response. It would depend on far too many variable factors for anyone to say for certain that he WILL get benefits if he quits now; it's not a sure shot by any means. Refusing benefits because he's got too much pride to step down is not "less protection" no matter how you try to twist it.
 

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