Using purchased wifi time in parking lot Loitering/trespassing?

[cyjeff]

Okay, here's the long and short of it. The property owners have an almost absolute right to permit or deny use of the property. Even if you are using something you purchased, if you are asked to leave and you refuse, you can be subject to arrest. If you feel that you have been ripped off, you can take the store to small claims court. Or, you can use the device where everyone else is using it ... which, I presume, is NOT the parking lot.

You don't have to like it, you don't even have to agree with it, but you have to comply with the request to leave or you can face the legal (criminal) ramifications of a failure to comply.

Oh, and I am very familiar with buying time from T-Mobile, AT&T, etc. at these places. But, my buying a 6 hour block (or whatever it might be) does not give me an absolute right to use the property for the time frame of the purchase. Starbucks does not have to let me hang out for the next 24 hours because I purchased a 24 hour block of access time. If I know I will have to leave in 2 hours, I can choose not to purchase the time and go home where I can get on line for free.



- Carl

Exactly.

Further, the more I read this, the more suspicious it is. No one would go to the trouble and expense of setting up a car system like this just so that they didn't have to sit in Starbucks.

I think our friend WAS looking to hack and wants to find out if he has a legal leg to stand on when the security catches him.

You don't. In fact, I would have suggested you be arrested and had your laptop examined.

It doesn't take long to find out if you have the correct software and/or data to try to hack POS systems.

When you act suspiciously, you cannot get upset when people view you with suspicion.

When on private property, you are allowed access at the whim of the owners or their representatives. Period.

 

[VirginiaPrisone]

They allow you to park so you can be inside the mall not hanging out around it(loitering). Whatever store has the WAP is the place that you are authorized to use the service. If you went to an internet cafe to buy internet time your not going to be allowed to run a cat6 cable to your car and use it are you? Just because you own a cellphone doesnt mean you have a contract to be able to talk on it anywhere you recieve signal. These Service Agreements usually say what you cant do and not so much what you can.

The mall, including parking lot, sidewalks, and even inside the stores is controlled by mall management. the stores are rented spaces and usually the mall leaves it up to the store to make rules inside but still the mall management can kick you out of that one store if they want to.


Sounds like you use the internet in your car a lot. Maybe you should consider a laptop card that you can get from most cellphone companies. This way you are not restricted to sitting in your shady spot at starbucks. You still however are at the mercy of the property owners wherever you decide to use it. Keep in mind the longer your in one spot the more suspicious you are going to look, especially if you in your car. You may be parked in a public place but your sitting in the privacy of your car and therefore look suspicious.

The only place you can really expect privacy is in your home.

 

[justalayman]

=rdrake;2118221]Ok Hitler...err Justalayman.. I get your point..> The property management doesnt need a reason for anything and can do whatever they want. Meanwhile, back in western civilization...

this is in western civilization. You just want to be right and you aren't. You aren't listening.

I looked in the contract and there isn't anything about where you are allowed to use the service etc. With my 'uneducation" I would assume that it says something to the effect of you you are subject to the rules of whereever you are using this service.

I wouldn't worry about the TOS. As I said before, Starbucks nor any other store can authorize you to sit in the parking lot. The mall management controls that area and they have final say so.

So the rule is that you cant sit in your car and eat your food?

If the mall management says no, it's no. If they allow it, then it's fine.

Or you can.. but wait.. you only have 30 minutes to eat... that was in fine print in the oil droppings in the space you parked in.. next to the picture of baby Jesus. .. you should have seen it before you pulled your car in. Or no.. your ok as long as you don't have an ex girlfriend who works at one of the stores who doesnt want you there? Is that it?

Are you arguing just for the sake of arguement?

Here is it, very simple;

stores are private property. They control what happens inside of their doors.

mall is the parking lot and common areas. The mall managment controls what happens in the parking llot and common areas.

What I would like to know what are the laws regarding them forbidding my shop there?

If you are told not to come back, yes there are laws to enforce that demand.

Sure if anyone ever asked me to leave, I would leave immediately.. But can they tell me that I can't shop there?

Yes. Each store can bar you from entering their store but the mall management can ban you from the parking lot and common areas. At this point, they apparently do not wish to do that. You were investigated and maybe all will be well from here on out. Maybe not. That is why I suggested speaking with the mall management and ask them if it is ok. They control the parking areas and what they say goes.

 

[cyjeff]

Folks, I don't know how else to say this.

Malls and shopping centers consider anyone routinely sitting outside a retail location with a computer set up as highly suspicious.

Further, they have standing rules that demand removing someone sitting for extended periods of time on their laptops.

Our friend here is lying. He sits for hours outside malls complete with a car enabled rig and provisions so that he can hack retailers. I don't believe for a moment that someone would walk into a mall, buy lunch and then sit in their car to innocently surf the web for several hours. What I do believe is that our friend here is trying to find an unsecured or poorly secured retail wireless network so that he can pull data from the net.

And YES, I find this question HIGHLY suspicious this time of year, as well. What better time for someone to try to get as many credit card numbers as possible.

You see, our friend CAN'T do this while sitting in the food court or in front of Starbucks because anyone looking over his shoulder would know what he was up to.

He is merely trying to find something to wave in front of mall security when they throw him out.

 

[justalayman]

you could very well be right there cyjeff.

good thing the only thing he can wave is his hand as he leaves the parking lot.

 

[outonbail]

good thing the only thing he can wave is his hand as he leaves the parking lot.

Maybe not, you ever try waving at someone with your hands cuffed behind your back? I imagine you'd have to be double jointed,,,

 

[rdrake]

Regarding hacking into retail outlets.. if anyone is actually able to do this, well its probably the retail outlet's fault in the first place

I'm sure in 10 years it will be much more common for people to be sitting in their cars with a computer, and it won't be 'suspicious' as it is now. Im sure once that rolls around, all of you will have long and forgotten this conversation and would still look at me like Im crazy for thinking that there was ever anything suspicious about using your laptop in your car.

Its sad that in the sick world we live in, that I can't even sit in my car and enjoy my meal without having to choke it down lest I be considered 'suspicious'. And what is to stop whoever is hacking into retail outlets from doing it at starbucks? Oh yeah... I can see it now... "WAIT... What is THIS GUY doing? Look at all those numbers! Holy Jesus! Someone call the cops!"

Basically, the way things SHOULD work, is if I am ever seen in my car and it is an issue, the guard is welcome to inquire what is going on. Once I show him my proof of purchase within a reasonable time that should be the end of the matter, period. It doesnt matter what Im doing in my car, its no one's business. And it shouldnt' matter if its one day, two days, or everyday. Just becaues a person patronizes a mall each day doesnt mean that that person is suspicious. If the guard determines that my proof of purchase is too old he is welcome to let me know that the mall is for active customers only and I will be happy to leave. WHAT is in my car has no relevance, even if I have a surveillance van with a whole crime lab. Whether Im watching a movie on an ipod, reading a book, using my laptop, or whatever, it really makes no difference. The only relevant point is whether I have made a reasonable purchase within a reasonable time. As far as Im concerned, a 13 dollar take out prime rib from Bristol Farms entitles me to spend as long as I want eating it in my car screwin around w/ my laptop. If they want to ask me to leave, I have no problem with it whatsoever. I really don't see how they are going to give me a tresspasing warning though, considering I have my mail box at the post office, my fitness membership at the gym, as well as a host of weekly purchases from all the different eateries throughout the month. If you look at this same issue from a few years ago... the issue was all about unruly teens, shoplifters, gangbangers roving the malls in groups intimidating customers. But now they are gonna make an issue of someone taking too long to eat his lunch in his car?

 

[justalayman]

other people that hang out in their cars at the mall:

rapists
muggers
car thieves
child molesters
thieves in general (especially at Christmas time)
dope dealers
hi-tech thieves (such as the ones stealing CC numbers)

and apparently 1 guy that is using the WiFi from Starbucks

You're hanging with a great crowd there rdrake.

 

[cyjeff]

Regarding hacking into retail outlets.. if anyone is actually able to do this, well its probably the retail outlet's fault in the first place

That is a little like people saying, "If banks didn't want people to rob them, they shouldn't have all that money".

I'm sure in 10 years it will be much more common for people to be sitting in their cars with a computer, and it won't be 'suspicious' as it is now.

Not really. You see, there is still that whole "can't type while driving" thing to consider.

Now you have to convince me that you enjoy the mall parking lot SOOO much that you would PAY for wi fi when it is free on campus.

Im sure once that rolls around, all of you will have long and forgotten this conversation and would still look at me like Im crazy for thinking that there was ever anything suspicious about using your laptop in your car.

Probably not me.

You see, I consult to retailers on a variety of subjects including network security and LP.

I wouldn't have shoo'ed you off the property. I would have had you arrested and your laptop searched for information.

Its sad that in the sick world we live in, that I can't even sit in my car and enjoy my meal without having to choke it down lest I be considered 'suspicious'. And what is to stop whoever is hacking into retail outlets from doing it at starbucks? Oh yeah... I can see it now... "WAIT... What is THIS GUY doing? Look at all those numbers! Holy Jesus! Someone call the cops!"

Exactly. As you know, the hacking software used is pretty easy to recognize once you know what you are looking for.

Why would a thief take the risk? It is better to sit in your car... under a shady tree...

Basically, the way things SHOULD work, is if I am ever seen in my car and it is an issue, the guard is welcome to inquire what is going on. Once I show him my proof of purchase within a reasonable time that should be the end of the matter, period. It doesnt matter what Im doing in my car, its no one's business.

So, all a hacker would have to do is to buy a couple of hours of Starbucks time prior to beginning his phishing expedition and the security guy could do nothing? Wrong.

As far as your business, if you are doing it on private property, it is their business. For instance, you can also be tossed out of the mall for watching porn on your laptop for the same reason.

And it shouldnt' matter if its one day, two days, or everyday. Just becaues a person patronizes a mall each day doesnt mean that that person is suspicious

You are just wrong.

If the guard determines that my proof of purchase is too old he is welcome to let me know that the mall is for active customers only and I will be happy to leave. WHAT is in my car has no relevance, even if I have a surveillance van with a whole crime lab.

Again, wrong.

What if they looked in your window and saw a gun, a prybar, a mask and a sack with a big dollar sign on it? Would it still be just your business and they can't do anything about it?

Of course not. The difference here is that you are stealing without the gun and hoping no one knows.

So, what is your major, anyway?

Whether Im watching a movie on an ipod, reading a book, using my laptop, or whatever, it really makes no difference

As far as kicking you off the property because they don't like the look of you... you are correct.

The only relevant point is whether I have made a reasonable purchase within a reasonable time

That isn't even CLOSE to the ONLY relevant point. Just because you demand it be so means nothing.

You also never answered my question of how far away you were from the Starbucks.

As far as Im concerned, a 13 dollar take out prime rib from Bristol Farms entitles me to spend as long as I want eating it in my car screwin around w/ my laptop

And you would be wrong.

If they want to ask me to leave, I have no problem with it whatsoever

So why are we still talking?

I really don't see how they are going to give me a tresspasing warning though, considering I have my mail box at the post office, my fitness membership at the gym, as well as a host of weekly purchases from all the different eateries throughout the month.

Because none of that means squat.

If they believe you to be engaged in illegal behavior, as I am sure you are, they don't have to ask you if it would really really inconvenience you to be arrested for trespassing and barred from the mall.

No one cares that you eat lunch at the mall everyday.

If you look at this same issue from a few years ago... the issue was all about unruly teens, shoplifters, gangbangers roving the malls in groups intimidating customers. But now they are gonna make an issue of someone taking too long to eat his lunch in his car?

Yes, they are.

Listen, you are either hacking the networks or stalking someone. One of the two.

Either will get you rightfully barred.

The questions you need to answer.

What is your major?
How far away are you from Starbucks?
Why would you pay for time from Starbucks when your school offers wi fi for free?

 

[rdrake]

Well I have to disagree... your theory on retail net security and hackers is a long haul from 'anyone sitting in their car' is a criminal. I have to uphold that its a shame that I can't sit in MY car, in a place that I make regular purchases from without having to answer to someone about what I am doing. Thats just bad customer service, even if I am surfing the web in my car.

I flagged down a police officer today and asked him and he said as long as you buy something you should be fine. I told him that I like to use the WIFI in my car while I eat and sometimes I'm there for a bit is that a problem? They said as long as your not spending the night in the lot and just be sure you buy something.

 

[rdrake]

You see, I consult to retailers on a variety of subjects including network security and LP.

I wouldn't have shoo'ed you off the property. I would have had you arrested and your laptop searched for information.

Well I got a good laugh out of that... so you've got a variety of regular customers..i.e. people who come in several times a week, with their laptops... but based on the fact that one of em likes to sit in his car instead of sitting at Starbucks.. your gonna 'have that person arrested.. and his laptop searched...?? Aye Aye Capt.. errr Mr. Blackwater Security Consultant... haul em all in!

Well my friend if you plan to be succesful at that I would highly suggest you do a little research before you try to have anyone arrested. There are specific laws about detaining 'trespassers', especially about what are termed as 'undesireables' or those who have not actually broken any laws. If you did have me arrested, you would have a hefty lawsuit on your hands and I doubt your business would last very long.

How long do you think you would last in front of a judge.. this guy is used to hearing about gangbangers and punks who were told to leave and your going to tell him that you had a guy arrested for using the WIFI in his car because you thought he was hacking into the retail stores? Why not just arrest everyone in the vicinity?

 

[CdwJava]

I find using a computer in a car very UN-ergonomic, and uncomfortable ... I'd prefer to be inside the Starbucks, myself.

Well I have to disagree... your theory on retail net security and hackers is a long haul from 'anyone sitting in their car' is a criminal.

I don't think he said that "anyone sitting in their car is a criminal". What he implied was that anyone just sitting in their car in a parking lot is likely to attract attention from authorities because it is unusual and it is suspicious. Maybe, in ten years, there will be so many people doing it that it will no longer BE suspicious (I doubt it, but, maybe ...). Until then, it is a sufficiently peculiar act that security will likely make contact to find out what you are doing. And, if they do, they CAN legally ask you to leave or face criminal prosecution.

I have to uphold that its a shame that I can't sit in MY car, in a place that I make regular purchases from without having to answer to someone about what I am doing. Thats just bad customer service, even if I am surfing the web in my car.

Then find another mall. When the rest of the world doesn't like the customer service they shop elsewhere (though, you're not really a mall customer, are you - you're an AT&T or T-Mobile customer).

I flagged down a police officer today and asked him and he said as long as you buy something you should be fine. I told him that I like to use the WIFI in my car while I eat and sometimes I'm there for a bit is that a problem? They said as long as your not spending the night in the lot and just be sure you buy something.

Sure. That's because it's not trespassing unless the mall management or their agents complain. The cop might make contact with you, but he cannot demand that you leave absent some other circumstances (like the mall is closed).

- Carl

 

[cyjeff]

Well I got a good laugh out of that... so you've got a variety of regular customers..i.e. people who come in several times a week, with their laptops... but based on the fact that one of em likes to sit in his car instead of sitting at Starbucks.. your gonna 'have that person arrested.. and his laptop searched...?? Aye Aye Capt.. errr Mr. Blackwater Security Consultant... haul em all in!

Nope. But someone that routinely does it, yes.

Well my friend if you plan to be succesful at that I would highly suggest you do a little research before you try to have anyone arrested. There are specific laws about detaining 'trespassers', especially about what are termed as 'undesireables' or those who have not actually broken any laws. If you did have me arrested, you would have a hefty lawsuit on your hands and I doubt your business would last very long.

You can try. You would lose.

Especially when I would have already pulled the log files from the network to see whom was trying to play... and match it to your computer.

This is not my first day.

How long do you think you would last in front of a judge.. this guy is used to hearing about gangbangers and punks who were told to leave and your going to tell him that you had a guy arrested for using the WIFI in his car because you thought he was hacking into the retail stores? Why not just arrest everyone in the vicinity?

Believe it or not, judges preside over all KINDS of cases.

Including yours.

Still haven't answered my questions, sparky.

How far were you away from the Starbucks?
What is your major?

 

[outonbail]

Regarding hacking into retail outlets.. if anyone is actually able to do this, well its probably the retail outlet's fault in the first place

This line alone speaks volumes about the OP.


So Mr. rdrake, Ignore all of the advise you have received. No one here is telling you the truth. Go sit in that parking lot for as long as you want and if anyone tells you that you have to leave, you just tell them that some unknown guy on the Internet who calls himself outonbail said to go screw yourself.
In fact, if I were you I would go there today and have a tailgate party. Bring a giant screen TV for a monitor and set it on the hood of your car. No one has the right to tell you what you can and can not do on their property. They have some nerve for even trying!
You buy a six dollar cup of coffee and you own the place as far as I'm concerned. If the rent-a-cops don't agree, roll up your window, lock your doors and ignore them. I say screw the mall security and the property management, they don't know squat!
When the real police show up, just show them your receipt from Starbucks, then stand back and watch them arrest the mall security guards for harassing you. They'll just be getting what they deserve so show them your pearly whites as they are led away in cuffs!

I don't need to remind you that this is America Jack, land of the free, home of the brave and mom's apple pie! (Insert patriotic music here) So you march right back into that mall parking lot and stab a flag into the ground!

Do it today, make a stand and do it with pride!!!!!



There now, you got the answer you wanted to hear. Can you please go away now?

 

[CdwJava]

This line alone speaks volumes about the OP.

I've heard that sentiment from hackers ... much the same as Taggers ... it's not their fault that they are allowed to commit a crime.

There now, you got the answer you wanted to hear. Can you please go away now?

I think his last diatribe and bizarre hypothetical was his 'ast post ... we'll see.

Oh yeah, nice advice, by the way ... maybe he'll heed those ideas.

- Carl