On children choosing .....

[wileybunch]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Nevada

The general rule of thumb is "children do not choose". That is, IMO, excellent parenting advice. But, it's not always exactly true legal advice because in some states, children's views are considered and while the child does not "choose", if the child's been prepped enough by a parent, it can end up being the same thing.

So here's my question ....

When children's wishes are considered, is it for custody only or also for visitation? DH lives in same area as ex and has 50/50 physical custody in the summer with the one minor child left of his 4 and his ex is already starting on trying to prevent this again for next summer. Every year is "the" year when DD won't have to go with Dad any more, so says Mom. First child was promised (by mom) it would be when she was 12 and it's happened each year so that this past summer Mom now refers to it as "your" schedule when referring to the time DH has DD in the summer (as in it's Dad's the forcing it, Mom doesn't really agree). So mom's saying next summer child will be 15 and child should only come in the summer for actual vacation times way from home, that if Dad has to work, child shouldn't have to be at her other home. And, that Dad should agree to that, but if Mom needs to, she'll have DD interviewed. And, DD is more than willing to be interviewed (so says Mom).

So what's the real deal out there -- can a 50/50 summer parenting time be changed if 15yo says they'd rather stay at their custodial parent's house (this is absent any particular activities that would require her to be there, this is just a generic thing based on her age that Mom's putting forth)?

Mom also stated they have a ROFR and that she plans to be home in the summer (she's always worked FT so this is new) and that during the period of time Dad's at work, that would require him to let DD stay at her Mom's house and he can have her after that. But, their ROFR is actually for overnights, not for 8-hour periods like Mom's stating. And, whether Mom is staying home remains to be seen. She lies over things that are easily proven otherwise so DH isn't taking this as a fact at this point, but am including this for completeness.

 

[wileybunch]

Bumping this up to see if anyone has sage advice on this based on experience.

??

 

[penelope10]

Wiley, I'll be honest I don't know enough about NV law to state anything useful. Just wanted to state that Mom is a real piece of work.

I am assuming that Dad has been consistent about his summer visitation and that the court (if it comes to this) will see through this b.s.

Just wanted to give you a little moral support. I know that's not much help.

Pen

 

[wileybunch]

The thing is that kids DO get interviewed, though, and while things can vary down to the exact judge and the specifics of the case -- ie. in DH's case, Mom has a history and the same judge would not be happy AT ALL if she tried this with him, but he's retired and I don't believe we can know what the next judge will do -- so I want to know if someone's had experience with status quo being as it is and having summer time cut down, not due to activities, but "just because" due to age.

DH is consistent with summer time is since he took her to court a few years ago for contempt because he'd been tiptoeing around her to the point it got ridiculous. This is before he realized he could bring a contempt motion. He'd previously gotten bad legal advice just to "clarify" some things and that ended up being a terrible time for his kids because Mom dragged them through her drama when she had to go to court and DH didn't want to do that to them again ... until it got so bad with Mom he explored what he needed to do with a new attorney and realized it was black/white contempt and the risk of "doing that to his kids" wasn't such a risk anyway, she'd interfered so badly. For the summer time, Mom's very difficult with it because as far as she's concerned, if no schedule is worked out, DH would have to keep his school year parenting time. So she's always awful about it, etc., but DH persists and files a stipulated schedule each year. Last year he warned her that if it didn't get done, he'd make a motion to have the summer schedule alternate week to week and that would be that, they wouldn't need to work out a schedule. But, it is better if they CAN work one out so that there's give and take and DD's schedule can flex to do things important to her, too, like girl's camp, etc.

DH did ask DD (I wasn't there) if she was planning to only come for vacations next summer and she said he wasn't and DH just said, "Hmm" and left it at that. He believes her. I hate it when her mom puts words into her mouth. Of course Mom PLANS to work on DD again prior to next summer, but to throw her DD under the bus and make it look like DD's the bad guy just really burns me up. DH has to always wonder if his DD's being a turd about things or what.

They're currently battling Christmas time. We'll be back East when DH gets her the morning after Christmas so the following day early he's flying her back east to meet us in Boston first because we'll already be out there, then back to upstate NY area where we'll all fly back home from, and Mom's all in a froth how she shouldn't have to fly alone, etc. And, famous last words -- "Don't be surprised if she isn't on the plane" and "She's a big girl, I can't exactly put her under my arm and make her do it." @@@ She'll be a few months shy of 15 and Mom's always saying how she's practically an adult, etc. when it suits her and DD likes to come off like she's independent and capable, etc., but heaven forbid she should fly alone (on a non stop) for something for DH and Mom whips DD into a froth to the point she's crying (this is over the phone, I'm sure she'll be more normal when she's here again this weekend). The sad thing is we're also going to see church history sites in the upstate NY area, pivotal sites in our church's history, Mom is the same religion, and she's still battling against it. I swear she is inherently evil.

 

[Ohiogal]

Normally, in my experience, judges will not cut time just due to age. If dad were not getting the child to established activities that the child wanted to do or various things that like, coupled with the child's age, visitation could be decreased.

 

[LdiJ]

In my observations, despite the "general rule" teens are often given some leeway in regards to visitation. Their wishes are often taken into consideration...particularly in my state.

However, whether or not they are given some leeway in NV is something that I do not know. A local attorney would have a better feel for the climate of the courts there.

Also, sometimes its actually wiser to compromise a bit with teens. You don't want them to see age 18 as "freedom from the other parent" day. You don't want to allow them not to visit at all, but sometimes its better to compromise a bit with them.

Compromise is less important if they can still access all of their friends and have their normal social lives at both parent's homes.

 

[stealth2]

Ideally, flexibility and understanding from BOTH parents is the way to go. Many of you know that my ex is a piece of work in his own right and that we have no communication whatsoever. Despite that, one thing we HAVE managed to do right is allow our kids to have as normal a life as possible, given the circumstances and distance.

I'm pretty much hands off when it comes to them seeing their Dad - it's between the three of them. We have *maybe* 1-2 occasions in a year that I can't reschedule. Other than that, I appreciate the courtesy of being asked if a particular w/e is free, which the kids are very good about. Dad is similarly flexible (and I will avoid voicing the snarky thought going through my head ).

For example, according to "the schedule", I get Christmas during Odd years. But... he hasn't taken them for Christmas for the past 5 or 6. They recently found out that their Dad is trying to bring his mother over for Christmas. They didn't even have to ask - I told them that I thought they should try to schedule it so they're with Dad et al. I'd kinda like New Year's Eve, but if that's not possible, it's okay. Because it's not all about me.

Thing is, it really takes the passage of time, generally, to reach a point where it's just not worth getting into a lather. Early on, every little thing the other parent does or says is taken in the worst possible light. As time goes on, however... it just takes too much energy to look for that negative angle.

 

[haiku]

I don't have any experience with your state of course

but I do have non custodial long distance teen relationships, through the husband.

As the kids got older it got easier for mom to twist that knife and make the relationship even more strained.

The childrens social life and jobs, whether they actually have any or not, has been a perfect scapegoat for mom to get away with denying visitation, with nothing more than a wrist slap for the past few years. the judge even ordered that "we" take our visitation in their community at great expense to "us", and still he didn't get his kids much-but just the excuse that the kids have jobs and "lives" was enough to get away with it.

At this point with 4 years until the youngest is 18, visitation is honestly becoming a joke. Mom can take the kids to visit people who live 45 minutes from us, but there is always some "worthy" excuse for why the kids don't see their father as scheduled.

At this point the cost of court far outweighs any benefit. "we" take what we can get, and swallow the hurt and dissapointment, in the hope that 4 years from now, the relationship won't be so damaged the kids will not choose to see us on their own.

As LDiJ says, compromise is very important if you think of the BIGGER picture than just right now. We have a very evil CP, who is a territorial control freak, we can't change that, so we concentrate on the picture the kids can see of "us" when its all over. The hotel idea wasn't really a bad one, if we had had a CP who wanted to actually fascilitate the long distance relationship.

Long distance is a horror show, being on the tail end of it now, I cringe, when people think its a perfectly OK thing to do. Unless both parents are "normal", it will always mean the NCP is going to get marginalized, and legally its a near impossible thing to fight, if said NCP, is a parent who WANTS to be a "normal parent" and not a distant one.

 

[wileybunch]

Thanks, guys. I realize it's not a one-size-fits-all, but thank you for the feedback from your experiences.

Ideally, flexibility and understanding from BOTH parents is the way to go. Many of you know that my ex is a piece of work in his own right and that we have no communication whatsoever. Despite that, one thing we HAVE managed to do right is allow our kids to have as normal a life as possible, given the circumstances and distance.

I'm pretty much hands off when it comes to them seeing their Dad - it's between the three of them. We have *maybe* 1-2 occasions in a year that I can't reschedule. Other than that, I appreciate the courtesy of being asked if a particular w/e is free, which the kids are very good about. Dad is similarly flexible (and I will avoid voicing the snarky thought going through my head ).

For example, according to "the schedule", I get Christmas during Odd years. But... he hasn't taken them for Christmas for the past 5 or 6. They recently found out that their Dad is trying to bring his mother over for Christmas. They didn't even have to ask - I told them that I thought they should try to schedule it so they're with Dad et al. I'd kinda like New Year's Eve, but if that's not possible, it's okay. Because it's not all about me.

Thing is, it really takes the passage of time, generally, to reach a point where it's just not worth getting into a lather. Early on, every little thing the other parent does or says is taken in the worst possible light. As time goes on, however... it just takes too much energy to look for that negative angle.

I wish YOU were DH's kids' mother! She actively and openly continues to interfere with DH's relationship with his kids and I actually think it's worse and it's been over 10 years. There's no end to the energy she's willing to invest and she really thinks nothing of what she does to the kids in the process. I am also a NCP and I never pull even a hint of the the things she does with my kids and their dad.

This DD's actually a lot like DH so DH "gets" her and he's never had an issue negotiating the territory with things DD needs/wants to do on her time with him so whenever Mom gets into the middle of things, she pulls Chicken Little type stuff and will throw her DD under the bus putting words in her mouth, but sometimes she does work DD into a froth like summer before last when Mom hadn't done anything to get DD ready for the upcoming school year starting and got DD good and upset ie. not wanting to come out of the house before DH picked her up for his last summer parenting time. "Problem" was easily solved when she was taken to our hairdresser for her haircut and out for school clothes and supplies shopping on DH's time.

LDiJ, DD has access to all her friends and activities when she's with us. Granted, she's not in the same neighborhood when she's with us, but we have no problem picking up friends to do things or taking her over to friends. She's brought a friend boating, hiking, etc. with us. She's also a bit of a loner, has a lot of friends through school and church, but doesn't necessarily spend a lot of time on her personal time hanging with them outside of those places. She's a tomboy and likes to read and experiment with hair styles on her free time and also practice the piano a good bit (she's very good). She's free to spend the night at friends' houses on DH's time and go to parties. What sorts of changes to visitation are you aware of that have happened with this age and what was it factored on?

 

[wileybunch]

I don't have any experience with your state of course

but I do have non custodial long distance teen relationships, through the husband.

As the kids got older it got easier for mom to twist that knife and make the relationship even more strained.

The childrens social life and jobs, whether they actually have any or not, has been a perfect scapegoat for mom to get away with denying visitation, with nothing more than a wrist slap for the past few years. the judge even ordered that "we" take our visitation in their community at great expense to "us", and still he didn't get his kids much-but just the excuse that the kids have jobs and "lives" was enough to get away with it.

At this point with 4 years until the youngest is 18, visitation is honestly becoming a joke. Mom can take the kids to visit people who live 45 minutes from us, but there is always some "worthy" excuse for why the kids don't see their father as scheduled.

At this point the cost of court far outweighs any benefit. "we" take what we can get, and swallow the hurt and dissapointment, in the hope that 4 years from now, the relationship won't be so damaged the kids will not choose to see us on their own.

As LDiJ says, compromise is very important if you think of the BIGGER picture than just right now. We have a very evil CP, who is a territorial control freak, we can't change that, so we concentrate on the picture the kids can see of "us" when its all over. The hotel idea wasn't really a bad one, if we had had a CP who wanted to actually fascilitate the long distance relationship.

Long distance is a horror show, being on the tail end of it now, I cringe, when people think its a perfectly OK thing to do. Unless both parents are "normal", it will always mean the NCP is going to get marginalized, and legally its a near impossible thing to fight, if said NCP, is a parent who WANTS to be a "normal parent" and not a distant one.

I can only imagine how much harder long distance is. My DD has actually not been the best CP with her son, now lives across country from her son's Dad who's never gone to court to establish visitation because they work it out, but she denied him his summer visit completely this past year (but let me have my grandson for 2 weeks to go on vacation with us) and refers to her current boyfriend as her son's father. *sigh* I'm going out to help her with new baby in December, will be there for 3 weeks, and plan to work on that with her because it makes me ill that a child's being convinced his dad doesn't want to see him when his dad actually does and so does his large family (he's now meeting with attorneys to establish orders).

I'm really sorry your DH has to deal with this. I do understand why some men want to wash their hands of things because their attempts to stay involved end up getting them assassinated even more with their kids. The judges should entertain less shenanigans by CPs that attempt to control the entire picture. That really marginalizes the NCPs while the CP is already actively marginalizing.

I still ask DH what is wrong with his ex, why she is this way. I don't get it. She's the worst person we deal with in our lives if we stack all the people together both of us encounter in our families, work lives, church, community, etc. times 100, I mean, it's off the hook. And, you have to slog through it because those are these guy's flesh and blood. This is why CJane doesn't want a man with kids, though!

 

[LdiJ]

Thanks, guys. I realize it's not a one-size-fits-all, but thank you for the feedback from your experiences.

I wish YOU were DH's kids' mother! She actively and openly continues to interfere with DH's relationship with his kids and I actually think it's worse and it's been over 10 years. There's no end to the energy she's willing to invest and she really thinks nothing of what she does to the kids in the process. I am also a NCP and I never pull even a hint of the the things she does with my kids and their dad.

This DD's actually a lot like DH so DH "gets" her and he's never had an issue negotiating the territory with things DD needs/wants to do on her time with him so whenever Mom gets into the middle of things, she pulls Chicken Little type stuff and will throw her DD under the bus putting words in her mouth, but sometimes she does work DD into a froth like summer before last when Mom hadn't done anything to get DD ready for the upcoming school year starting and got DD good and upset ie. not wanting to come out of the house before DH picked her up for his last summer parenting time. "Problem" was easily solved when she was taken to our hairdresser for her haircut and out for school clothes and supplies shopping on DH's time.

LDiJ, DD has access to all her friends and activities when she's with us. Granted, she's not in the same neighborhood when she's with us, but we have no problem picking up friends to do things or taking her over to friends. She's brought a friend boating, hiking, etc. with us. She's also a bit of a loner, has a lot of friends through school and church, but doesn't necessarily spend a lot of time on her personal time hanging with them outside of those places. She's a tomboy and likes to read and experiment with hair styles on her free time and also practice the piano a good bit (she's very good). She's free to spend the night at friends' houses on DH's time and go to parties. What sorts of changes to visitation are you aware of that have happened with this age and what was it factored on?

I have seen all kinds of different things. I know one family that had a 50/50 situation (this is in the real world) and at 16 the judge allowed the child to choose to live full time with his father, and see his mother on an unscheduled basis. I don't recommend that one, because it has really marginalized mom.

Then I have seen cases where visitation was scheduled, but the children were allowed to decide whether or not to go, based on what else was going on in their lives.

I have also seen orders that have left things loose, but with some minimum stipulations. I know one dad out here in the "world" who says that his relationship with his daughter has actually improved, because now when they see each other, they focus on each other and talk a lot more. He says its a lot more quality time.

 

[wileybunch]

I have seen all kinds of different things. I know one family that had a 50/50 situation (this is in the real world) and at 16 the judge allowed the child to choose to live full time with his father, and see his mother on an unscheduled basis. I don't recommend that one, because it has really marginalized mom.

Then I have seen cases where visitation was scheduled, but the children were allowed to decide whether or not to go, based on what else was going on in their lives.

I have also seen orders that have left things loose, but with some minimum stipulations. I know one dad out here in the "world" who says that his relationship with his daughter has actually improved, because now when they see each other, they focus on each other and talk a lot more. He says its a lot more quality time.

Thanks, LDiJ.
Part of this is I'd want to know what factored into the decision ie. WHY there were changes in cases.

The one to allow the child to choose who they lived with and see mother on an unscheduled basis that ended up going into the toilet has got to have more to that story. Would a judge really take a balanced relationship and throw it that far out of whack without a specific impetus? (of course one would hope not ...)