• FreeAdvice has a new Terms of Service and Privacy Policy, effective May 25, 2018.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our Terms of Service and use of cookies.

Training ? - speed est. by eye

Accident - Bankruptcy - Criminal Law / DUI - Business - Consumer - Employment - Family - Immigration - Real Estate - Tax - Traffic - Wills   Please click a topic or scroll down for more.

Status
Not open for further replies.
What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? CA

Normally police officers will attest that they visually estimated the speed of a vehicle.

Can anyone expound upon the actual training methods that officers' receive in their training to measure the speed of a moving vehicle by eye?

And the frequency of this training (only at the Academy?, yearly?)?
 


I_Got_Banned

Senior Member
What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? CA

Normally police officers will attest that they visually estimated the speed of a vehicle.

Can anyone expound upon the actual training methods that officers' receive in their training to measure the speed of a moving vehicle by eye?

And the frequency of this training (only at the Academy?, yearly?)?

As long as the officer is P.O.S.T. trained and certified (http://post.ca.gov/), he/she is qualified to present testimony for a visual estimate. Unless you're going to get a trained officer to expand upon the "methods" utilized as part of such training, I doubt you'll find any "publications" that offer any specific details.

The one detail that I can offer is that in order for an officer to become “certified”, he/she must be able to visually estimate the speed of a certain number of vehicle (say a 100) with a margin of error of less that +/-5mph. As such, depending on the elements of the offense charged and the particular # of miles over the limit that such an estimate is made at, will dictate whether the officer's visual estimate is sufficient to meet the “beyond a reasonable doubt” burden of proof required for a conviction.

As for frequency, officers are required to complete and pass POST training once. As far as I know, no refresher/re-training course work is required; however, the officer's field experience does tend to add more weight to his/her testimony.

I haven't come across an California cases that specifically address this particular issue... Although Ohio has a similar policy to that of California and you can read about one recent Ohio case here: http://www.supremecourt.ohio.gov/PIO/summaries/2010/0602/091069.asp.
 

justalayman

Senior Member
and a note about the Ohio situation. There is current work afoot that would remove the ability of the officer to determine speed on his own. I believe there is actually a bill introduced. It requires the use of some form of technology for a speeding ticket to be issued.
 
Unless you're going to get a trained officer to expand upon the "methods" utilized as part of such training

Are there any officers who post here that could shed some light on this? Almost every speeding case has this testimony but the training they receive is not known to the public as far as I know...

You are likely right that they only get trained once ... I cannot find any reference to this technique in the POST website as a formal course.
 
Last edited:

I_Got_Banned

Senior Member
Keep an eye out for CDWJava. He is a police office, in California. He posts fairly regularly.
If my memory serves me right, Carl has previously posted that although he is not POST certified, his testimony has proven to be sufficient for a speeding conviction or two based on his "experience" as a "police officer" and a "driver"...
 

justalayman

Senior Member
If my memory serves me right, Carl has previously posted that although he is not POST certified, his testimony has proven to be sufficient for a speeding conviction or two based on his "experience" as a "police officer" and a "driver"...
I just figured for information about the topic. If anybody here knows about it, he will.
 

CdwJava

Senior Member
If my memory serves me right, Carl has previously posted that although he is not POST certified, his testimony has proven to be sufficient for a speeding conviction or two based on his "experience" as a "police officer" and a "driver"...
That is correct.

Radar certification requires extensive training in visual estimation (and I forget how many visual estimates they have to make, but I seem to recall they have to hit a 95% accuracy or something quite high) ... my brain is foggy today, been to a funeral, got no sleep, and still have to work until 1 AM. This training is pretty involved and consists of several hours of practical work and ongoing practice and training.

A court can also choose to accept an officer's untrained visual estimation based upon his or her training and experience as a peace officer. I have been permitted to testify as to my visual estimate (after a legal challenge) even though I have never had radar training and the academy offers zero hours in this. Each court is different. Some courts might not accept my informal experience ... others clearly have.
 

CdwJava

Senior Member
They're required to make at least 100 estimates of a vehicle's speed within five miles per hour of its actual speed.

At least that's what it says in People v. ZUNIS, Cal: Appellate Div. 2005 http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=15615892610292933045
That sounds correct.

One of my officers is a radar instructor and she had I had a recent discussion on this issue ... my mind is so fuzzy tonight I'd probably forget my call sign if I didn't write it on the palm of my hand! ;)
 
They're required to make at least 100 estimates of a vehicle's speed within five miles per hour of its actual speed.

At least that's what it says in People v. ZUNIS, Cal: Appellate Div. 2005 http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=15615892610292933045

From the case cited the court noted:

From his official CHP plane, Officer Hines saw appellant moving at a speed he visually estimated to be 105 miles per hour.

I doubt that officers' training at the academy (and I think that this is the only formal training they have) would have included visual estimates from a plane. This case opinion does not indicate that any attempt was made investigating the training methods & their effectiveness.
 
That sounds correct.

One of my officers is a radar instructor and she had I had a recent discussion on this issue ... my mind is so fuzzy tonight I'd probably forget my call sign if I didn't write it on the palm of my hand! ;)

CdwJava, when you go through and estimate the speed during the academy, was this one a one-on-one session (you & instructor only) or in a group setting where cadets make verbal estimates ?

And I imagine, that the academy uses a single course? Is this correct?

Sorry about the funeral..
 

I_Got_Banned

Senior Member
From the case cited the court noted:

From his official CHP plane, Officer Hines saw appellant moving at a speed he visually estimated to be 105 miles per hour.

I doubt that officers' training at the academy (and I think that this is the only formal training they have) would have included visual estimates from a plane.
Well, the validity of an officer's visual estimate is not dependent on his location (or elevation for that matter) nor is it dependent on his/her speed relative to the vehicle which he/she is estimating. In some cases, the officer may be stopped at the side of the road, on an elevated bridge/overpass...etc, while in others, he/she may be moving along with traffic. Incidentally, we've had a similar discussion on another forum regarding a citation which was issued at 10pm that involved a visual estimate/RADAR reading... Someone brought up the point that he doubts that the officer was trained in visual estimates during darkness. Hardly a relevant point in that it would be safe to assume that said vehicle had its headlights on and it would be just as easily to track it regardless of whether the sun is out or not!

Typically, an officer will testify that he/she made a visual estimate of the suspect vehicle, followed by either a RADAR/LIDAR/Pace to confirm (narrow down) such estimate... In some cases, and subsequent to a challenge of the validity of the RADAR/LIDAR/Pace estimate by the defendant, the court may decide to sustain the defendant's objection which will ultimately result is the RADAR/LIDAR/Pace reading being thrown out. That leaves the visual estimate which, in theory, can not be challenged in an appeal especially considering the fact that an appeals court will not entertain a challenge that is based on second guessing a decision by the trier of fact as to whether he/she decided whether the officer's testimony (the evidence) was credible enough to sustain a conviction.

From "People v. Zunis":

The appellant was free to attack the accuracy of the watch "through cross-examination and otherwise" but the ultimate decision on how much weight to give the evidence rested with the trial judge, whose factual determinations cannot be revisited on appeal. We may not reweigh evidence. (People v. Ochoa, (1993) 6 Cal.4th 1199, 1206, 26 Cal.Rptr.2d 23, 864 P.2d 103; People v. Barnes (1986) 42 Cal.3d 284, 303-304, 228 Cal.Rptr. 228, 721 P.2d 110.) "It is the exclusive province of the trial judge or jury to determine the . . . truth or falsity of the facts upon which a determination depends." (People v. Thornton (1974) 11 Cal.3d 738, 754, 114 Cal.Rptr. 467, 523 P.2d 267.)
And, more to the point we are discussing here (again, from "People v. Zunis":
Appellant further contends that the officer's visual estimate was not substantial evidence of speed because he had not been trained to perform visual estimates from the air and because he "admitted to a 5 mph error factor." Again, these facts affect the weight to be placed on the officer's visual estimate. However, we must presume the court afforded them the appropriate weight in reaching its conclusion that appellant exceeded 100 miles per hour.

This case opinion does not indicate that any attempt was made investigating the training methods & their effectiveness.
I didn't cite that case in an attempt to imply that the effectiveness of the P.O.S.T. training methods are "scientifically" accurate/reliable (if that is what you mean). Initially, I cited it only as a reference that during such training, an officer has to successfully make 100 estimates before he is considered "P.O.S.T./ certified". Although a more careful reading of the case would suggest that a visual estimates are indeed, "legally acceptable" (and frankly, I highly doubt that you can find a case wherein the POST training methods were put to the legal test).
 

I_Got_Banned

Senior Member
And I imagine, that the academy uses a single course? Is this correct?
It is my understanding that some "POST training courses" (and specifically RADAR/LASER training) are separate form the "academy training"... In other words, POST training courses can be taken either during the basic academy training or AFTER the officer graduates... similar to a "continuing education" program.

I could be wrong though :D
 
The SMDs are required to be scientifically valid (ie Frye test). The methods & training of the officer in their speed measurements are no different.

The visual estimate is still a quantitative result of a measurable and real quantity.

If it is more art than science then it has no place in a courtroom IMO.

The location & environment of the speed estimate is relevant. If his training did not include the same conditions then he was not trained for measuring the speed of the vehicle.

What is the operator error in the measurement (I have seen +/- 5 mph) and what is the operator to operator error? These are errors that must be known before one can say that the measurement is valid. This is science.

I have seen no court case in which a Frye test was performed.

As an example, from the court case of:
165 Misc.2d 217 (1995)
629 N.Y.S.2d 367
The People of the State of New York, Plaintiff, v.Gary F. Depass, Defendant.
Justice Court of Village of Roslyn Harbor, Nassau County. March 27, 1995
The court noted:
The court is not willing to base a conviction for speeding on the basis of a dispute between an officer's visual speed estimate and a defendant's assertion that he read his speedometer.

Of course different states have different opinions but I have never seen in any state the idea that a visual speed measurement must not pass a Frye
test.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Find the Right Lawyer for Your Legal Issue!

Fast, Free, and Confidential
Top