Wife actually gave me COPY of Separation Agreement to review WITH her...

[rj2010]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? NY

My wife said it was against the attorney and others, but she wanted me to have a draft so we can agree together...I pasted the CHild Support part below....can you give me feedback? Is this fair? How often does the other spouse get this opportunity?:


ARTICLE 4
CHILD CUSTODY AND VISITATION
A. The parties shall have joint legal custody of their child, XXXXXXXXXXX, born on August 31, 200X, and the Wife shall have residential custody of the child.
B. The Husband shall be entitled to the following visitation with the child:
(a) every other weekend beginning on Friday at 5:00 p.m. and ending on Sunday at 8:00 p.m.

(b) two (2) additional non-consecutive days each week, with the days and times to be agreed by the parties.

(c) All Jewish religious holidays.

(d) Each Halloween.

(e) In odd numbered years beginning in 2011, Memorial Day, Labor Day, and July 4th.

(f) In even numbered years, commencing in 2012, New Year’s Eve, and Thanksgiving.

(f) every Father’s Day.

(g) the Husband’s birthday each year.

C. The Wife shall be entitled to the following holiday visitation with the children:

(a) every Christmas and Christmas Eve.

(b) In even numbered years commencing in 2012, Memorial Day, Labor Day, and July 4th.

(c) In odd numbered years commencing 2013, New Year’s Eve, and Thanksgiving,

(d) every Mother’s Day.

(d) the Wife’s birthday each year.

D. In odd numbered years, the child will spend the daylight hours of his birthday (August 31) with the parent with whom he is otherwise with on that day. In odd numbered years, the evening hours of his birthday will be spent with the other parent. In even numbered years, the child will spend the daylight hours of his birthday (August 31) with the parent with whom he is not otherwise with on that day. In even numbered years, the evening hours of his birthday will be spent with the other parent. The child will have a birthday party on a date other than his actual birthday, and that event will be celebrated by both parties together.
E. All visitation shall begin and end at the Wife’s residence, and the Husband shall be responsible for transporting the children to and from the Wife’s residence.
F. The Wife shall not relocate the residence of the child more than 20 highway miles from their current residence without either the consent of the Husband or an order from a Court of competent jurisdiction.
G. The Wife shall at all times provide the father with unrestricted reasonable telephone access to the child, and shall give to the Husband the telephone number of each residence occupied by the child and shall promptly advise him of any changes in that telephone number.
H. Husband shall have access to all medical and educational records, reports, and other material pertaining to the child, and shall have independent, direct, and unhampered access to this information at all times.
I. The parties will use their best efforts to be flexible and cooperative with each other, to reasonably accommodate each others needs regarding visitation with the child, and to avoid undue unpleasantness in the presence of the child. The parties recognize that the welfare of the child is of paramount importance and each agrees to foster and encourage feelings of affection and respect between the child and the other parent.
J. Neither party shall do or say anything to hamper the development of love and affection of the child for the other parent, or to disturb the emotional well being of the child nor shall either parent subject the children to any examination with respect to the conduct of the other parent, nor shall either parent attempt to infuse and instill in the minds of the child any animosity, hostility, or other such feelings with regard to the other parent.
K. In the event of a medical emergency in which the child is confined to a health care facility or to their residence, both parents shall have the right to visit with the ailing child at the place of confinement.
L. The Wife shall not at any time or for any reason cause the child to be known as or identified by any surname other than "XXXXXXXXXXXXX." Neither party shall permit the child to use the designation "mother" and/or "father" or any equivalent terms to refer to any person other than the Wife and the Husband, respectively.
M. The parties shall provide each other not less than 90 days advance written notice of any plans to take XXXXX outside of the State of New York. Such notice shall include a full travel itinerary, and a working contact telephone number at which the child can be telephoned.
N. Each party shall execute and deliver to the other all forms, authorizations, documents, and consents required by any governmental authority in order to permit the child to travel with the other parent outside of the United States.
O. Husband may arrange for the child to spend one Friday or Saturday night each month with his parents, and such visit shall coincide with a night on which he would otherwise have the child.


Thanks !!

 

[LdiJ]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? NY

My wife said it was against the attorney and others, but she wanted me to have a draft so we can agree together...I pasted the CHild Support part below....can you give me feedback? Is this fair? How often does the other spouse get this opportunity?:


ARTICLE 4
CHILD CUSTODY AND VISITATION
A. The parties shall have joint legal custody of their child, XXXXXXXXXXX, born on August 31, 200X, and the Wife shall have residential custody of the child.
B. The Husband shall be entitled to the following visitation with the child:
(a) every other weekend beginning on Friday at 5:00 p.m. and ending on Sunday at 8:00 p.m.

(b) two (2) additional non-consecutive days each week, with the days and times to be agreed by the parties.

(c) All Jewish religious holidays.

(d) Each Halloween.

(e) In odd numbered years beginning in 2011, Memorial Day, Labor Day, and July 4th.

(f) In even numbered years, commencing in 2012, New Year’s Eve, and Thanksgiving.

(f) every Father’s Day.

(g) the Husband’s birthday each year.

C. The Wife shall be entitled to the following holiday visitation with the children:

(a) every Christmas and Christmas Eve.

(b) In even numbered years commencing in 2012, Memorial Day, Labor Day, and July 4th.

(c) In odd numbered years commencing 2013, New Year’s Eve, and Thanksgiving,

(d) every Mother’s Day.

(d) the Wife’s birthday each year.

D. In odd numbered years, the child will spend the daylight hours of his birthday (August 31) with the parent with whom he is otherwise with on that day. In odd numbered years, the evening hours of his birthday will be spent with the other parent. In even numbered years, the child will spend the daylight hours of his birthday (August 31) with the parent with whom he is not otherwise with on that day. In even numbered years, the evening hours of his birthday will be spent with the other parent. The child will have a birthday party on a date other than his actual birthday, and that event will be celebrated by both parties together.
E. All visitation shall begin and end at the Wife’s residence, and the Husband shall be responsible for transporting the children to and from the Wife’s residence.
F. The Wife shall not relocate the residence of the child more than 20 highway miles from their current residence without either the consent of the Husband or an order from a Court of competent jurisdiction.
G. The Wife shall at all times provide the father with unrestricted reasonable telephone access to the child, and shall give to the Husband the telephone number of each residence occupied by the child and shall promptly advise him of any changes in that telephone number.
H. Husband shall have access to all medical and educational records, reports, and other material pertaining to the child, and shall have independent, direct, and unhampered access to this information at all times.
I. The parties will use their best efforts to be flexible and cooperative with each other, to reasonably accommodate each others needs regarding visitation with the child, and to avoid undue unpleasantness in the presence of the child. The parties recognize that the welfare of the child is of paramount importance and each agrees to foster and encourage feelings of affection and respect between the child and the other parent.
J. Neither party shall do or say anything to hamper the development of love and affection of the child for the other parent, or to disturb the emotional well being of the child nor shall either parent subject the children to any examination with respect to the conduct of the other parent, nor shall either parent attempt to infuse and instill in the minds of the child any animosity, hostility, or other such feelings with regard to the other parent.
K. In the event of a medical emergency in which the child is confined to a health care facility or to their residence, both parents shall have the right to visit with the ailing child at the place of confinement.
L. The Wife shall not at any time or for any reason cause the child to be known as or identified by any surname other than "XXXXXXXXXXXXX." Neither party shall permit the child to use the designation "mother" and/or "father" or any equivalent terms to refer to any person other than the Wife and the Husband, respectively.
M. The parties shall provide each other not less than 90 days advance written notice of any plans to take XXXXX outside of the State of New York. Such notice shall include a full travel itinerary, and a working contact telephone number at which the child can be telephoned.
N. Each party shall execute and deliver to the other all forms, authorizations, documents, and consents required by any governmental authority in order to permit the child to travel with the other parent outside of the United States.
O. Husband may arrange for the child to spend one Friday or Saturday night each month with his parents, and such visit shall coincide with a night on which he would otherwise have the child.


Thanks !!

Ok, point M is a really, really, really bad and unfair one, for BOTH of you. 90 days notice is ridiculous and would allow neither of you to take any kind of impulse weekends out of state.

Point O is not great, because you should be free to do whatever you like as far as extended family is concerned, during your parenting time, but its not necessarily a hill to die on either.

Point E isn't particularly fair (you providing all the transportation) but she is committing to not moving more than 20 miles away, so again, its maybe not a hill to die on.

Point B(b) could be problematic if the two of you don't agree consistantly on what your two weekdays would be.

I also didn't see any provision in there for vacations, unless that is what point M was referring to, but if it was, its very vague.

Other than that, this is one of the better parenting plans that I have seen. Its a nearly 50/50 schedule, is very fair on the holidays, and mom is conceding a lot of points that aren't often conceded easily.

 

[stealth2]

I'm trying to find the Child Support part, which is what OP indicated he was sharing....

 

[mistoffolees]

I agree with Ld's comments. In addition:

- B doesn't say when the holiday begins. For example, husband gets Halloween. Does that mean they wake the child up at midnight to take him to Dad's and then bring him back at Midnight? Obviously not. What time do holidays start and end?
- Dad gets all Jewish holidays. I would suggest that you list them. It's probably too vague.
- I don't see a right of first refusal in there. In most cases, it's a good thing to have.
- I'm a little concerned about O. Overstepping grandparents might be able to use that to argue that they have a RIGHT to the child. Dad can choose to let the kids stay where he wants even without the clause. Perhaps simply state that the right of first refusal does not apply if the children are staying with family members of the husband's choosing.
- The birthday one is fairly convoluted and might be a mess when the child gets older. Especially the 'daylight hours' portion - I can see them fighting over star charts to see when the sun rises. In our case, our daughter just gets her birthday with whoever would have her. The other parent celebrates her birthday on a different day. She therefore gets two birthdays and no one seems to mind. If you think it's important, I'd work on the wording to clean it up.


As for the opportunity to work without the lawyers involved, there's nothing really wrong with it - as long as you have your attorneys review it before you sign anything. You should, however, let the attorneys know that you're doing this. Doing it behind their backs isn't really very nice.

In the end, the agreement will work if the two of you make it work. It's far more likely to be OK if it says what YOU want it to say and not something that's forced upon you. Not to mention that if the two of you can reasonably sit down and decide, it will cost a tiny fraction of what it would cost if you drag the attorneys and court into it.

 

[TinkerBelleLuvr]

Will any Jewish Holiday overlap any other holiday, such as Christmas/ Christmas Eve with Hanukkah - not in the mood to look them all up.

On point (B) (b), what is the start and end times, especially with any winter breaks, summer breaks, etc.

You need to address the split of Winter & Spring Break. Does someone get all of Thanksgiving break if they want to travel?

Need to address some uninterrupted summer parenting time. In fact, you might want to consider going week/on & week/off, or every two weeks.

Need to address who gets to pick their weeks first (suggest alternate and by no later than 4/15) of every year.

 

[Ohiogal]

Why does mom's odd year holidays not start until 2013? And dad's start this year? In addition to what every one else asked.

 

[CSO286]

Why does mom's odd year holidays not start until 2013? And dad's start this year? In addition to what every one else asked.

Actually it looks like the 2013 clause specifically refers to thanksgiving and new years....I get the new years portion, but I'm a little confused on why she gets turkey day for the next two years.....

 

[nextwife]

I agree that Dad alone should NOT be the sole party responsible for transportation. The recieving party should do the driving. Better off getting that straight now.

RE: Jewish holidays, which start at sunset:

What will you designate as start times? These vary through the year, as does sunset times. Perhaps pick up or delivery as soon as school is out? I agree that clarification, as to exactly what holidays are intended, is needed. Additionally, if mom relocates to a school district that does not close on any Jewish holidays dad needs to make certain his child's participation and availability for services is not impared.

Some years, some Jewish holidays will overlap Christian holidays. You need clarity on who will have possession, or if those will be split, and if so, how.

Special events such as weddings, cousin's or siblings Christenings, confirmations, Bar or Bat Mitzvahs etc. which may not fall on the parent's weekend or day of possession, perhaps you could have an advance notice provision to trade weeknds or a single day?

 

[LdiJ]

I agree that Dad alone should NOT be the sole party responsible for transportation. The recieving party should do the driving. Better off getting that straight now.

RE: Jewish holidays, which start at sunset:

What will you designate as start times? These vary through the year, as does sunset times. Perhaps pick up or delivery as soon as school is out? I agree that clarification, as to exactly what holidays are intended, is needed. Additionally, if mom relocates to a school district that does not close on any Jewish holidays dad needs to make certain his child's participation and availability for services is not impared.

Some years, some Jewish holidays will overlap Christian holidays. You need clarity on who will have possession, or if those will be split, and if so, how.

Special events such as weddings, cousin's or siblings Christenings, confirmations, Bar or Bat Mitzvahs etc. which may not fall on the parent's weekend or day of possession, perhaps you could have an advance notice provision to trade weeknds or a single day?

I think that the bolded is a little over the top. I don't know of any parenting plans that go that deep into micro-managing. I have seen a few that have a general provision that parent will cooperate with special family events, but I haven't seen them go much farther than that.

 

[ecmst12]

Section D could possibly be the dumbest idea ever.

 

[mistoffolees]

Section D could possibly be the dumbest idea ever.

Surely not the dumbest idea ever, but I agree that it's cumbersome and probably unnecessary.

 

[ecmst12]

What kid wants to spend his/her birthday being shuttled back and forth between parents? Why not just say mom gets even years, dad gets odd years, and define the times (I'd suggest either evening to evening or morning to morning, a full 24 hours to make it simpler)? Maybe it's not the dumbest thing we've ever seen, but it COMPLETELY ignores the child's best interests.

Also, I don't know about anyone else, but I can't think of many things that would have been more awkward and uncomfortable then having to survive a birthday party with both of my parents in close proximity to each other....horrible! Maybe with parents who were friendly with each other, it would have been ok...but as a requirement of the parenting plan it still a bit extreme, no?

 

[LdiJ]

What kid wants to spend his/her birthday being shuttled back and forth between parents? Why not just say mom gets even years, dad gets odd years, and define the times (I'd suggest either evening to evening or morning to morning, a full 24 hours to make it simpler)? Maybe it's not the dumbest thing we've ever seen, but it COMPLETELY ignores the child's best interests.

Also, I don't know about anyone else, but I can't think of many things that would have been more awkward and uncomfortable then having to survive a birthday party with both of my parents in close proximity to each other....horrible! Maybe with parents who were friendly with each other, it would have been ok...but as a requirement of the parenting plan it still a bit extreme, no?

Yeah I see your point on that although my ex and I not only had that in our parenting plan but we also included joint holidays....and we did it just fine...and enjoyed it ourselves too. It depends on the people. I know others who have done it well too.

 

[stealth2]

Additionally, if mom relocates to a school district that does not close on any Jewish holidays dad needs to make certain his child's participation and availability for services is not impared.

Since absence for religious reasons is usually considered an excused absence, Dad should make sure it is specified that the child may miss school for specific holidays. And yes, the Jewish holidays SHOULD be specified (I'd say the same if it were simply stated Christian holidays to Mom - there are more Holy Days in both religions than the "standard" holidays). Presumably, Dad is going to be reasonable enough not to keep the child from school for ALL of Hanukkah or ALL of Pesach.

I also thought the schedule for Mom not starting until 2013 was a bit odd. What happens THIS year for her?

Birthdays... YEah - don't force the joint party. If y'all get along well enough to do it? You won't need that *ordered*. If you don't? All you will succeed in doing is ruining your child's parties. We did one for each (the first right after papers were filed, and the second while the custody battle was in full swing), and I regret both - but particularly the second. It was awkward for everyone, both me and ex, our families and the parents of the guests. Just... not our most brilliant moment.

Also... there will come a point where the child is not going to want the kind of party that warrants both parents presence. Or may want to just do a special outing with one of the other parent in lieu of a party. I would leave it as alternating the actual day, and each parent can celebrate as they wish - with a party, an outing, a sleepover, whatever.