Advice needed on how to fight a citation.

[DaytonMomof2]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Ohio

We were heading west in a slight rain around 8:15 p.m. The road has two westbound and two eastbound lanes separated by a turn lane. Speed limit is 35. (stroop and marshall 45429 - Google Maps) There was little traffic. Hubby was driving around 30 mph due to rain and dark. I was looking out my window. As we approached an intersection, Hubby noticed the car traveling south was not slowing, so he started to brake and said something. None of us remember exactly what he said, but it made me look forward. I turned in time to see the car enter our lane. Hubby swerved/changed lanes to the left and braked hard. Our van's right front corner struck the other car's left front corner.
As the van came to a halt, I opened my eyes. I must have closed them on impact. I saw that our airbags had deployed and the van was filling with smoke (from the airbags). As Hubby asked if I was ok, I told him to pull into the nearest business parking lot. A quick glance back and I knew the kids were ok, but they were starting to choke on the smoke. As soon as we were stopped, I turned and unbuckled my daughter's carseat. Hubby had gotten out and opened my son's door. He took my daughter away from the car to get fresh air. I climbed over the seat and unbuckled my son's carseat and took him into the fresh air.
The other driver had somehow gotten their car into the same lot and came over to ask if we were hurt and if we had called the police yet. He said something about not knowing what happened. Hubby was not talking other than to continually seek reassurance that the kids and I were unharmed. He told me afterward that he was so angry that he didn't dare talk to the other guy.
I was pretty much in a daze for the next hour - dealing with keeping the kids warm and happy. We hadn't planned on being outside and my son was the only one with a coat. One of the officers asked me what color the light was. I said I wasn't looking, but I was sure it was green due to the way Hubby was driving. She also asked if I had noticed any other cars around. I said no.
After the tow trucks and rides home had arrived and everyone was ready to leave, one of the officers gave Hubby a citation for failure to obey traffic signals. As he handed it over he said, "This is clear as mud." Hubby was shocked. So was I. This was the first time the whole hour that we had any idea that there was even a question as to who was at fault. We questioned the officer who said that he didn't know what color the light was, but an independent witness had said there was a westbound left-turner who turned just before the accident. Since left turns often happen on red - after traffic going through the yellow has cleared the intersection - they are assuming our light must have been red.
We didn't know there was a witness. We didn't even know the other guy said his light was green.
The officer said, "Feel free to contest it." And he made a very solid point of saying he would be there on the court date.

Any advice on how to proceed?

I posted on two local news stations facebook pages asking for any other witnesses to step forward, but no response.

 

[ecmst12]

The witness statement will win here, since the witness has no interest in which light was red, while all of the involved parties have an interest in not being at fault. And "I didn't see the light but it must have been green" is not a useful statement at all. Of course you were not the driver so you did not have to be looking, but even if you had, the witness' statement would still be considered more credible. Sorry but it looks like hubby is going to be found at fault here. But of course that is why you have insurance. The passengers can still claim against hubby's liability coverage if they were injured, or if you have Med Pay coverage you can all use that.

Incidentally, make sure that you REPLACE all of your car seats. I don't know if anyone told you about that, car seats are only designed/tested to withstand ONE accident, after that you can't be sure if they will protect the child in another accident. So always get new car seats after an accident.

 

[DaytonMomof2]

Do we have the right to see/hear the witness statement? From what the officer said, the witness did not say the light was any particular color...only that they saw a left-turner turn.

As to my statement being helpful, I know that it wasn't. When I was asked, I told the truth. I did not see the light, plain and simply. I do, however, know how my husband drives. He is the type of driver who would only go through a yellow light if there is someone following too closely and he is afraid they would rear-end us. He is always very aware of what's around him when he drives.

Our insurance company asked if we were going to contest it. Then, they took my husband's recorded statement/account of what happened. Not sure what they will do next.

No one in our car or the other car was injured.

I specifically asked one of the police officers if we would need to replace the carseats. He said you only need to replace them if they were damaged in the accident.

Thank you for your comment.

 

[ecmst12]

Police officers have knowledge of some things and NO knowledge of other things.....replace the car seats. You can call the manufacturers if you want to make sure.

 

[DaytonMomof2]

Thank you very much. After reading your first comment, I did some internet research and reached the conclusion you expressed in your second comment. Hubby will be asking the insurance company about replacement seats. Unfortunately, I am forced to use these seats until we can get new ones next payday.
Thanks again for bringing that to our attention.

 

[ecmst12]

It's unlikely that your insurance will cover the cost to replace the car seats, even if you have collision coverage.

 

[Free_Advice]

Do we have the right to see/hear the witness statement? From what the officer said, the witness did not say the light was any particular color...only that they saw a left-turner turn.

As to my statement being helpful, I know that it wasn't. When I was asked, I told the truth. I did not see the light, plain and simply.

You have the right to see any notes, reports, statements, etc. This is obtained through discovery.

And the witness statements are likely not admissible -- they need the witnesses to show up in court and testify. The officer cannot testify for them. You have the right to confront witnesses.

Things to consider: the statements made by you & the driver (why you gave statements I don't know ~ I never give cops statements especially when I in the right).

You'll have to go to trial & object to the officer even testifying and object to his testimony as he gives it .. through objections at trial (and they will not get witnesses there) keeping out officer's hearsay (and you can ask, if the judge lets in 3rd party statements -- could the people have lied to you or given you incorrect statements), and cross examination you should be able to win via a motion for summary judgment after the state rests.

You do not have explain anything to the judge nor give testimony ~ the state has the burden of proving your guilt not the other way around. Your testimony & driver's is basically worthless.

Plead not guilty & take it to trial.

 

[DaytonMomof2]

So, if we have the right to see the witness statement, can we see it before the court date? Do I call the police station to ask for it?

As for the 'I never give cops statements', the last time I was in an accident involving police, I was a minor - over 25 years ago. In order to learn to not give a statement, one has to have an learning experience. Besides, even now, I think I disagree with you. I think giving a statement, ESPECIALLY when you are in the right, is the only way to protect yourself. If the other guy said, "My light was green." and my husband had said nothing, it's not even a they-said we-said. It's just a they-said.

Hubby is definately pleading not guilty and fighting it. It's just that neither of us has any experience with this stuff. That's why I found a forum like this.

It is interesting that you say the witness statement is inadmissable. The other threads I have read on this forum seem to all say the witness statement is the only thing they look at when deciding guilt.

 

[ecmst12]

The witness STATEMENT can't be used, the witness has to actually be present and testify. But there is no reason to believe that they won't show up, since the state will likely subpeona them.

And the officer can and will DEFINITELY be allowed to testify. He can testify as to what he personally saw and did on that day. He can't testify as to what someone TOLD him, but he certainly knows that.

Even if he gets out of the ticket, that's no guarantee that he won't still be found at fault for insurance purposes. The burden of proof is much higher in criminal cases.

 

[DaytonMomof2]

Thank you once again, ecmst. That is very helpful information.

If the witness and other driver doesn't show up, then there will be no one to dispute the color of the light. The officer admitted to us that he has no idea what color the light was.
If the other driver shows up but the witness doesn't, it will be they-said we-said. Does the witness statement come into it here?
If they both show then, I guess we will have it out. From what the officer told us, the witness didn't actually say the light was red or green...only that they saw a left turn. I think we can fight that.

As for the insurance, when Hubby said he was going to fight it, they told him it makes a difference as to how they handle it. But I do not know what that means exactly.

Do you know if there is a way to find out exactly what the witness said? I am going on heresay - the officer talking to us about having a witness. Again, during the clean-up we had no idea there was a witness even being questioned. (Due to the rain, everyone was sitting in different cars.)

 

[ecmst12]

Here's the thing - can your husband HONESTLY say that he is 100% certain that his light was green?

 

[DaytonMomof2]

I throughly understand your question. In fact, I had a very similar accident almost happen to me two weeks ago. And if I had not been able to swerve to avoid the other car, I would have been extremely uncertain of the color of the light. In fact, I still wonder if a ran a light that day.

However, my husband is 100% without a shadow of a doubt certain he had a green light. He saw the other car and started to react before we even got to the intersection. If the light had been yellow or red, he would have been able to stop. He thought swerving around them would be good enough. He did brake hard as he got into the intersection when he realized they weren't even slowing down.

As I have said, I did not see the light, but I can still see the car itself very plainly in my memory. I can see that the driver was looking to his right (away from us) and did not see us coming because he never even glanced our way.

 

[Free_Advice]

Here's the thing - can your husband HONESTLY say that he is 100% certain that his light was green?

It matters not really because a) this case would be won or lost at the state's presentation of the case and b) the husbands testimony would be worthless in the eyes of the judge

 

[ecmst12]

That's not true. IF the witness' account is determined to not be helpful or the witness does not show up, it will come down to the 2 drivers. If the other driver says, I am 100% certain that my light was green, and OP's hubby says, I'm not sure but I think it was green, then hubby loses. If hubby says I am 100% certain that my light was green, and the other driver says, I am not sure but I think it was green, the other driver loses. If BOTH drivers say they are 100% certain that their light was green, then they both lose. Neither of them will end up having the infraction on them, but both insurance companies will deny the other's claim and each will have to pay for their own damages.

IF the witness is available and the statement is clear and convincing, then the witness statement will rule. If the witness does not show in court but DOES give a statement to one or both insurance companies, then the insurance companies can still use the statement to make a liability decision.

 

[DaytonMomof2]

IF the witness is available and the statement is clear and convincing, then the witness statement will rule. If the witness does not show in court but DOES give a statement to one or both insurance companies, then the insurance companies can still use the statement to make a liability decision.

As a former insurance adjuster, what is your opinion on this accident, assuming the witness tells the insurance companies what the officer told us? (Yes, I realize you do not actually have the witness statement. But I am only asking your opinion.)