Cemetery is refusing to honor my Cemetery Deed dimensions

[LdiJ]

Rooty, Just a few comments:

When you post messages within the quote it is difficult to see your responses and many people would just assume that you made a technical mistake and didn't actually respond. If you don't know how to actually break up a quote to insert responses between sections of a quote its better if you just respond to everything outside of the quote.

You mentioned that other family members wanted to be buried inside your lot and that therefore the size discrepancy did make a difference. However, the overall configuration does matter when determining that. You also mentioned the need for 2.5' x 8' for a burial, but with that number you neglect to consider that there needs to be a margin between burials. So, the size discrepany may or may not make an actual difference. On one hand the dimensions of the lot get smaller in one direction, while getting bigger in the other. So, for example, if the coffins would all line up with the heads alongside the 24" or 26" side (and therefore the length on the 11.5" or the 14.5" side) then you aren't going to get more coffins on the plot if the longer side gets shorter and the other side doesn't make a difference because you would need a minimum of 16 - 18 ft to make a difference. If they face the other direction maybe that could change. Maybe you could possibly squeeze in another row but it would be an extremely tight fit.

You also need to consider that your dimensions might conflict with the dimensions of someone else with a deed as old, older, or almost as old as yours. Therefore there could be a ripple effect that could seriously impact people who are already buried in the cemetary. Even if you were 100% in the right I doubt that a judge would order that the cemetary move potentially dozens of coffins in order to make sure that you got your exact 24" x 14.5" lot. Most likely, any compensation you would get would be monetary compensation, and then possibly based on prices from the 1960's rather than today's prices. In other words you might only get compensated for the 1960 cost per sq ft of the 40 some square ft of discrepancy.

You need to be certain just exactly how the situation impacts not only your family, but the other families who might have loved ones already buried in the cemetary. Can you imagine what the media might do with a story about dozens of coffins having to be moved to accomodate a deed discrepancy? Would you want that kind of publicity?

Anyway, take the advice for what it is worth. I just think that you should think about all of the potential angles before you go much further with this.

 

[quincy]

It’s good to see you again, Rooty.

Perhaps it is time to contact your local media for help in investigating the cemetery for any misdeeds?

 

[Rooty1]

LdiJ

There are no other burials that are anywhere near my family lot. And burial of cremated remains takes up less space. Why would it be unreasonable for me to expect the Cemetery to have a parcel map that they can share with me?

 

[Rooty1]

Thank you, Quincy, you are reading my mind. Headline, "Chico Cemetery Robbing Grave Sites" - gotta love it.

 

[quincy]

Thank you, Quincy, you are reading my mind. Headline, "Chico Cemetery Robbing Grave Sites" - gotta love it.

Not a bad headline … once that is proved.

It sure seems worth investigating.

 

[Rooty1]

Quincy - I have a friend who owns a local funeral home. He recommends I write the California Department of Consumer Affairs Cemetery and Funeral Bureau Chief which I plan to do.

The notion there is insufficient evidence to support a violation of the Bureau's laws, rules, or regulations is impossible to believe. California law provides the cemetery must complete surveys. No where is it written than lot owners must complete their own surveys after a sale.

Thank you again for "getting it."

 

[LdiJ]

LdiJ

There are no other burials that are anywhere near my family lot. And burial of cremated remains takes up less space. Why would it be unreasonable for me to expect the Cemetery to have a parcel map that they can share with me?

I did not suggest that it was. I don't know where you got that idea.

I really think that you need to show your deed to a real estate attorney and get an opinion, at least.

 

[quincy]

Quincy - I have a friend who owns a local funeral home. He recommends I write the California Department of Consumer Affairs Cemetery and Funeral Bureau Chief which I plan to do.

The notion there is insufficient evidence to support a violation of the Bureau's laws, rules, or regulations is impossible to believe. California law provides the cemetery must complete surveys. No where is it written than lot owners must complete their own surveys after a sale.

Thank you again for "getting it."

Your friend’s suggestion is a good one.

 

[LdiJ]

Quincy - I have a friend who owns a local funeral home. He recommends I write the California Department of Consumer Affairs Cemetery and Funeral Bureau Chief which I plan to do.

The notion there is insufficient evidence to support a violation of the Bureau's laws, rules, or regulations is impossible to believe. California law provides the cemetery must complete surveys. No where is it written than lot owners must complete their own surveys after a sale.

Thank you again for "getting it."

Re the bolded: Of course there is no written law, but in any real estate matter, when there is a dispute, a survey is how you normally prove your position to the court. And, if a survey is needed to prove your position, then you want it to be a survey that you have done, not one that your opponent has done.

 

[quincy]

Re the bolded: Of course there is no written law, but in any real estate matter, when there is a dispute, a survey is how you normally prove your position to the court. And, if a survey is needed to prove your position, then you want it to be a survey that you have done, not one that your opponent has done.

Not necessarily. You just want the survey done by a reputable and an approved licensed professional land surveyor.

If Rooty does not want to pay for the survey - and he is not the one responsible for surveying the cemetery - he should insist (through an attorney if necessary) that the cemetery owner produce a legitimate plot map of the cemetery. Otherwise he should look seriously into suing the cemetery for breach of contract.

California Professional Land Surveyors:

https://www.bpelsg.ca.gov/laws/pls_act.pdf

 

[Rooty1]

Hi Quincy, finally heard back from the Cemetery and Funeral Bureau in answer to my complaint wherein the Chico Cemetery has failed to honor the dimensions found on the deed of my family's lot.

Quoting: "Our bureau thoroughly investigation your complaint alleging that Chico Cemetery failed to survey and amend their maps of the cemetery property from time to time. As you have been informed the investigation resulted in insufficient evidence of a violation of the laws and regulations that governing the cemetery and funeral practice act, and the case was closed as the original sale was intended for a mausoleum* and mapped accordingly. According to Health and Safety Code (HSC) section 8550, the cemetery authority is only required to update and submit the maps or plats as specified in subdivisions (a), (b), and (c) to the county recorder or local agency if they intend to modify an existing section or if a new section is developed after January 1, 1990. Please be advised that in accordance with HSC section 8300, each licensed cemetery under the Bureau’s jurisdiction can establish its own rules and regulations as a business. This may include creating and enforcing rules and regulations for the purposes deemed necessary by the cemetery authority for the protection and safeguarding of the premises such as regulating and controlling how all the property in the cemetery is used."

*This is not true, from the Cemetery Deed dated 13 May, 1965: "... an undivided one-third interest in Section 15, Block C1, Lot 3 and in the family mausoleum located thereon with right of interment in two adjoining crypts, said lot being fourteen and one-half feet by twenty four feet as shown on the cemetery map and records." The mausoleum only measures twelve feet x eight and one-half feet.

I wondered what evidence they did uncover so a Public Records Request was submitted only to be told the Bureau is exempt.

 

[quincy]

Hi Quincy, finally heard back from the Cemetery and Funeral Bureau in answer to my complaint wherein the Chico Cemetery has failed to honor the dimensions found on the deed of my family's lot.

Quoting: "Our bureau thoroughly investigation your complaint alleging that Chico Cemetery failed to survey and amend their maps of the cemetery property from time to time. As you have been informed the investigation resulted in insufficient evidence of a violation of the laws and regulations that governing the cemetery and funeral practice act, and the case was closed as the original sale was intended for a mausoleum* and mapped accordingly. According to Health and Safety Code (HSC) section 8550, the cemetery authority is only required to update and submit the maps or plats as specified in subdivisions (a), (b), and (c) to the county recorder or local agency if they intend to modify an existing section or if a new section is developed after January 1, 1990. Please be advised that in accordance with HSC section 8300, each licensed cemetery under the Bureau’s jurisdiction can establish its own rules and regulations as a business. This may include creating and enforcing rules and regulations for the purposes deemed necessary by the cemetery authority for the protection and safeguarding of the premises such as regulating and controlling how all the property in the cemetery is used."

*This is not true, from the Cemetery Deed dated 13 May, 1965: "... an undivided one-third interest in Section 15, Block C1, Lot 3 and in the family mausoleum located thereon with right of interment in two adjoining crypts, said lot being fourteen and one-half feet by twenty four feet as shown on the cemetery map and records." The mausoleum only measures twelve feet x eight and one-half feet.

I wondered what evidence they did uncover so a Public Records Request was submitted only to be told the Bureau is exempt.

That’s an unfortunate response.

 

[Rooty1]

Agreed, sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes you're the bug.

Thank you again.

Rooty

 

[quincy]

Agreed, sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes you're the bug.

Thank you again.

Rooty

Yup. It appears you might have hit the windshield. Sorry.