2 Deeds Claim Ownership of Same Land

[biglittle]

What is the name of your state? PA

We were to close on a property tomorrow. Yesterday I got a call from my real estate attorney saying he was canceling the closing because he could not certify the deed.

It appears that the property I am buying and the neighbor to the north are claiming the same 93 feet of road frontage.

Both deeds are claiming the same 93 feet of road frontage.

Tax records and maps show the neighbor to own the 93 feet, which we were previsouly unaware of.

The property was advertised as 1.5 acres with 200 feet of road frontage. The property, based on tax information, is actually 1 acre with 107 feet of road frontage.

The sellers are having a survey done. The neighbors to the north have already had a survey done recently.

My question is: The surveys are conducted based on information in the deed, correct? If both deeds claim the same 93 feet of road frontage, obviously the survey's will overlap. How will having a survey done accomplish anything? If both deeds claim the same 93 feet, how will they eventually determine who owns the land? Will they go back through the deeds, sales, etc. to see when the error occured?

 

[nextwife]

My question is: The surveys are conducted based on information in the deed, correct? If both deeds claim the same 93 feet of road frontage, obviously the survey's will overlap. How will having a survey done accomplish anything? If both deeds claim the same 93 feet, how will they eventually determine who owns the land? Will they go back through the deeds, sales, etc. to see when the error occured?

Once they have verified by survey which land this is, the title company can go back through the chains of title and see when the split interests for the land of this legal description first occured of record - and see if it is clear which party who deeded this land was never in good title to begin with. Obviously they cannot both have title to it (having a deed and having good title are two different things).

It will not be a fast process.

 

[biglittle]

Once they have verified by survey which land this is, the title company can go back through the chains of title and see when the split interests for the land of this legal description first occured of record - and see if it is clear which party who deeded this land was never in good title to begin with. Obviously they cannot both have title to it (having a deed and having good title are two different things).

It will not be a fast process.

I know it won't be a fast process. No one (lawyer, RE agent) wants to lend their opinion as to whether it looks like the property we want to buy will own the 93 feet. I don't think we will end up owning it, based on the tax records.

If that is the case, I'm not sure that we want the property, so why go through the process only to have to find a new home 30 days from now (or however long it takes to find out we don't own the 93 feet). The disputed property line will cut a pond, thought to be on our property, in half, as well as put two sheds thought to be on our property on the neighbor's.

The things that confuse me the most are:

1. The tax maps were last updated in January of 1996. The last purchase of the property was in March of 1996. Why wasn't this problem found during the last purchase (unless it was done without title insurance)?

2. If the neighbor's recently had a survey done, why didn't they say something to the current owner's when the shed's and part of the pond showed to be own their property?

3. There is an obvious tree/brush line that is what we thought seperated the two properties. It seems odd that the neighbor's property would come through this line.

Could the current owners actually own the property but the deed(s) were never changed?

 

[JETX]

"Could the current owners actually own the property but the deed(s) were never changed?"
*** Of course that is possible, but unlikely.

The issue is purely that of ownership. The title company will simply go back as far as possible and try to determine when that land was split up and what the metes and bounds were at that time. That will then be brought forward to see if there were any changes.... or where the error first appeared. As to how/why the error of claim happened, no one can answer that.

However, based on your post, it would also appear that the seller may not have a valid claim for that land. If that is correct, then you need to consider whether you are going to accept the land as it is and close, or to see what process might be available to cancel the sale and move on.

 

[biglittle]

"Could the current owners actually own the property but the deed(s) were never changed?"
*** Of course that is possible, but unlikely.

The issue is purely that of ownership. The title company will simply go back as far as possible and try to determine when that land was split up and what the metes and bounds were at that time. That will then be brought forward to see if there were any changes.... or where the error first appeared. As to how/why the error of claim happened, no one can answer that.

However, based on your post, it would also appear that the seller may not have a valid claim for that land. If that is correct, then you need to consider whether you are going to accept the land as it is and close, or to see what process might be available to cancel the sale and move on.

I asked advice of my RE attorney in regards to rescinding the contract based on the fact that the property was marketed as 200 feet of frontage and 1.5 acres, when in reality it may be deemed as 1 acre with 107 feet of frontage. He said that would be grounds to rescind the contract.

We want the property, obviously or we wouldn't be this far in to the transaction. The problem is, we want to get what we were expecting. If it is deemed we will not own the 93 feet and we still want to purchase the property, are we going to have to go through the entire loan process, appraisel, etc. again because what we are buying has changed? Would be charged all of the loan processing fees again? Finally, would we be able to change the purchase price of the contract to reflect the smaller acreage?

We are trying to look ahead to the future and see if this property just might end up being more trouble than what it is worth to work out all the problems.

 

[JETX]

The problem is, we want to get what we were expecting.

And more than likely (based on your post), the seller simply doesn't have it to give. Do you expect him to go out and try to buy that property from the other claimant??!!

If it is deemed we will not own the 93 feet and we still want to purchase the property, are we going to have to go through the entire loan process, appraisel, etc. again because what we are buying has changed? Would be charged all of the loan processing fees again?

That depends on your lender.

Finally, would we be able to change the purchase price of the contract to reflect the smaller acreage?

Of course you would. Simply cancel the existing contract (get signatures of ALL parties), then renegotiate a new contract with the sellers.

 

[biglittle]

And more than likely (based on your post), the seller simply doesn't have it to give. Do you expect him to go out and try to buy that property from the other claimant??!!

That would be ideal, but I know a long shot.

I will call my lender and ask for advice on the possible scenario of less acreage.

 

[HomeGuru]

Please post back when your lender responds.

 

[biglittle]

Please post back when your lender responds.

My realtor told me that there would not be any additional charges, even if we negotiated a lower price due to less acreage. We got our financing through the real estate agency.

We are still waiting on the land survey. We have signed an agreement to extend the closing. We have information that the sellers are willing to work with us if/when we find out the actual property is smaller than what it was advertised. Hopefully, everything will work out for the best.

 

[HomeGuru]

My realtor told me that there would not be any additional charges, even if we negotiated a lower price due to less acreage. We got our financing through the real estate agency.

We are still waiting on the land survey. We have signed an agreement to extend the closing. We have information that the sellers are willing to work with us if/when we find out the actual property is smaller than what it was advertised. Hopefully, everything will work out for the best.

**A: I doubt that the real estate company is doing the financing.

 

[biglittle]

Oh ye of little faith

**A: I doubt that the real estate company is doing the financing.

**A: I'm working with Howard Hanna Real Estate Services who has a division called Howard Hanna Finanacial Services that is "a full service mortgage banking corporation." Howard Hanna Financial Services is a Fannie Mae-approved lender.

It's all housed under one roof. I signed my sales agreement and mortgage application at the same office.

 

[HomeGuru]

**A: I'm working with Howard Hanna Real Estate Services who has a division called Howard Hanna Finanacial Services that is "a full service mortgage banking corporation." Howard Hanna Financial Services is a Fannie Mae-approved lender.

It's all housed under one roof. I signed my sales agreement and mortgage application at the same office.

**A: thanks, you have just proven my point. Look at the name on your sales contract as to your brokerage company and look at the name of the company on your 1003. You will note that it is 2 separate companies.

 

[biglittle]

**A: thanks, you have just proven my point. Look at the name on your sales contract as to your brokerage company and look at the name of the company on your 1003. You will note that it is 2 separate companies.

I knew when I posted that I got financing through the real estate agency someone would have to make a comment similar to your's.

The point was, getting information regarding lender fees from my realtor would be reliable since they work so closely together.

 

[biglittle]

Update: Got word from our realtor yesterday, 8/16/04, that the property listing is correct according to the survey. I'm not sure what the problem was at this point, but I will post when I have the details.

 

[biglittle]

We finally closed on 8/26.

The problems with the deed were:

1) Incorrect description based on a survey that was incorrect. We had a survey done and the deed corrected.

2) The property straddles two counties. Actually, almost all of the house and a majority of the property are in county A and part of the property is in county B. County B collects the taxes for the property and had information about the property on its tax maps, but only showing the property located in county B. County A has no record of the property and collects no taxes (although the house is in county A). When records were searched in county B, it only showed half the property and that's where a lot of the confusion was. A new property description is being recorded in both counties in case of a future sale.

The new survey revealed that my neighbors have a portion of their new fence constructed on my property. Great way to meet the neighbors, unfortunately.

The icing on the cake was when we went to the closing and my attorney pulled us in to his office and closed the door. I thought there were going to be more problems. He just wanted to inform us that the attorney for the sellers was drunk. What a perfect ending to such a complete mess of a transaction.