Adding audio to survelliance system

[quincy]

Hey, Baystategirl - You mean I can be snippier?? YAY!!

 

[Orcons]

With all due respect, Orcons, the statute you quoted has been quoted 3 times already in this thread. The statute is carefully worded and unambiguous and lists no exceptions for a private individual. Secret tape recording has been unequivocally banned in Massachusetts. The first case involving tape recording that comes to mind is Commonwealth vs. Michael J. Hyde, with Michael Hyde, who had hidden a recorder and taped an oral communication, winding up being convicted of 4 counts of violating the statute prohibiting the intentional interception of any oral communication. I am sure there are many many more. Massachusetts is very serious about privacy rights.
You are probably right that donavanatee could go to his neighbors and say, "I am going to tape record you. Is that OK?" and if they said, "Yes" then he could legally record them at that particular time. Maybe he could even get them to scream and yell just for the recorder. I don't think, however, threatening to do anything to them is a wise idea.
As for the posted notice, it is a suggestion I made as a joke to someone once....I honestly doubt it would help donavantee avoid prosecution for audio taping, especially with his trail of police reports against these people already. He could always check with the city on that, though.
And as for the video he took of an accident involving a drunk woman? Unless he disguised her identity, he can be sued. Period.
(and this is the very snippiest I have ever been on this site, so I apologize - but a lot of this is re-hash)

With all due respect to you, Quincy, I didn't find your post snippy, just non-responsive.

You state again that secret recording is not allowed but my post asked what an individual would have to do to make it not secret. That seems highly relevant and has not been addressed in any of the previous posts. The case you cited referred to someone who hid the recorder so is not on point (at least your reference to it is not). I never suggested he go to his neighbors and tell them he is going to record them as I don't know if that is required nor did I suggest he go and threaten them (I asked if "the mere threat of recording", i.e., the knowledge that they might be recorded, would induce the neighbors to stop yelling at him, that is not the same as threatening someone.)

Again, the question is, if an individual posts signs on their property that they are recording, is that sufficient? What if the equipment is in plain sight, is that enough? Or is something else required to make the recording "not secret"? It is clear that having consent of the individual being recorded is sufficient but if you know someone is recording and continue speaking, is that implied consent? I don't know the answers to any of these but case law would probably give an answer and would tell the OP what he or she can or can not do.

 

[donovanatee]

Donanvanatee - In Massachusetts, it is illegal to audio tape anyone without their permission. If you set up an audio system in your yard and happen to pick up their conversation, you can be sued. If you try to use it in court to prove how loud they are, you can be sued. Your neighbors, whether you like it or not, have a reasonable expectation of privacy on their property. The audio tape, unless you want to be sued, is not wise.
Have you checked noise ordinances in your community? Most areas have them. File a civil suit, if you have to, charging them with violating a noise ordinance.
As for your "news videos", there is a whole different set of rules set up for journalists, but even if you are a journalist, you can be sued for invasion of privacy. News organizations have legal teams to make sure they are not violating any privacy laws, but they also have the means to defend themselves in court should someone sue.
Your You Tube video can get you sued, as well, if the woman sobers up enough to view it.
I think, if the police are not responding to your pleas for help, then file suit against these neighbors, have other neighbors testify to the disturbances you are experiencing, get copies of the police reports you have filed, and then spend several years and lots of money and see how it all turns out.
And, if you insist on audio taping, you will probably be put in jail, and that will eliminate all of your problems, because jail will probably be a lot quieter.

It's not about noise. You must not have actually read my post. We have to drive by
these trashy nuts on our way in and out of our road. When they see us, they scream
profanaties and threats. We did sue them, and, as you said, it will take several years and lots of money to find the outcome. You might be less pompus of someone was calling your wife the f'n C word and you a cksukr with your little kids in the car. We call the cops and the neighbors say we are the ones screaming the stuff. Get it? We did get them on videotape engaging in criminal activity and they have been criminally charged. We have filed a million dollar lawsuit and are also suing them to move. Are you with me so far?
If I end up in jail, it won't be because I put a microphone in a tree, it will be because I've
been pushed too far and while I may find it quiet in jail, the neighbor will find it very quiet in the morgue.

 

[mommyof4]

I'm really, really sorry to beat a dead horse, but I think Orcons is missing this one very vital point: (yes, I am aware that this has been addressed, but maybe O just needs to see it again. Please don't be snippy )

4. The term “interception” means to secretly hear, secretly record, or aid another to secretly hear or secretly record the contents of any wire or oral communication through the use of any intercepting device by any person other than a person given prior authority by all parties to such communication; (goes on to make an exception for law enforcement ...)

Whether or not he posts a sign, announces over a loud speaker, signals in morse code....

If the other parties (and that means everybody that could possibly be picked up on the recording...think random neighbors walking their dog past his house) do NOT GIVE CONSENT, it doesn't matter.

Okay, I'm done. Sorry.

 

[Just Blue]

It's not about noise. You must not have actually read my post. We have to drive by
these trashy nuts on our way in and out of our road. When they see us, they scream
profanaties and threats. We did sue them, and, as you said, it will take several years and lots of money to find the outcome. You might be less pompus of someone was calling your wife the f'n C word and you a cksukr with your little kids in the car. We call the cops and the neighbors say we are the ones screaming the stuff. Get it? We did get them on videotape engaging in criminal activity and they have been criminally charged. We have filed a million dollar lawsuit and are also suing them to move. Are you with me so far?
If I end up in jail, it won't be because I put a microphone in a tree, it will be because I've
been pushed too far and while I may find it quiet in jail, the neighbor will find it very quiet in the morgue.

Quincy has very politely given you the gist of the law in Ma. regarding recording others...Given your situation you might want to consider moving.

 

[Orcons]

I'm really, really sorry to beat a dead horse, but I think Orcons is missing this one very vital point: (yes, I am aware that this has been addressed, but maybe O just needs to see it again. Please don't be snippy )




Whether or not he posts a sign, announces over a loud speaker, signals in morse code....

If the other parties (and that means everybody that could possibly be picked up on the recording...think random neighbors walking their dog past his house) do NOT GIVE CONSENT, it doesn't matter.

Okay, I'm done. Sorry.

I get it, I think that you are not reading what I wrote. And by the way, you are wrong. I went and looked up the case quoted previously (Commonwealth v. Hyde) and the judgement clearly says that you can not secretly record conversations without all the parties "permission or knowledge" (emphasis added). You can keep saying over and over again that CONSENT (your caps, not mine) is required but Commonwealth v. Hyde says that KNOWLEDGE (OK, those are my caps) is all that is required. This seemed to me to be the reasonable interpretation of the statute (and guess what, the SJC agreed!) and leads back to my original question, which no one seems to want to address, but what actions are necessary to insure knowledge of the participants?

Now I am done as this is getting tiresome..

 

[donovanatee]

What got my ire up?? Can you read? The OP had been answered and made aware, that to record in Massachusetts, without the consent of ALL parties, is VERY much against the law.

looking4trh pipes in to say " Why can't you record audio on your own private property?" BECAUSE IT IS ILLEGAL IN MASSACHUSETTS!
Her/His/Its post was misleading and contributed NOTHING to the OP but could only confuse the issue, which had ALREADY been resolved with the legal answer!
Arizona laws have nothing to do with Massachusetts at all! If a member can't answer the question with STATE SPECIFIC answers they should refrain from answering. Period!

And in my 5,865 posts I have indeed made a mistake ...or two...or even three...I have also had the grace and the brains to apologize to the OP and admit my error rather than replying with some dumba$$ comment about the first amendment! I also learned from my mistakes to be more careful...hence I am still here while looking4trh will most likely be banned for giving out misleading advice...because despite what she/he/it may think, the first amendment does not protect her/him/it in this forum.

Did you run out of Midol? Nobody cares about your 5,865 posts or your implied threat
of banning someone for attempting to help, even if he/she is off base. Are you actually only admitting to being wrong 3 times out of 5865?

There are laws, and there is the reality of how difficult and expensive it is to enforce the law. While attempting to negotiate a settlement last week, the neighbors' lawyer said he would settle the civil suit to our satisfaction and drop their counter claim if we would drop the criminal charges against his clients. This was done in front of two other attorneys and is very much against the law, is it not? Don't they call that EXTORTION? Guess what? Nobody cares! My lawyer is throwing a fit about it, but he will have to spend a great deal of time and report a fellow "brother" to the Board of Bar Overseers, which he really doesn't want to do.

Criminal courts are flooded with violent crimes and are simply too overwhelmed to
deal with microphones in trees or even a scumbag lawyer's illegal offer of settlement.

I do appreciate all advice of posters here and will continue to seek legal resolution to our problems. The police have actually been fairly helpful as they know we are nearing the end of our patience level with this matter. I don't want to do anything that would jeopardize their attempts to help find a non-violent and lasting solution to this mess, and therefore will forget about adding the audio.

 

[donovanatee]

Quincy has very politely given you the gist of the law in Ma. regarding recording others...Given your situation you might want to consider moving.

Thanks, but we are actually suing them to move.

 

[quincy]

Donovanatee - As much as I would like to respond to just about everything you said, I am going to control myself and just say this:
In your first post you asked if it was legal to secretly audiotape, and this question was answered - right away and thoroughly. You were told it was illegal and now you have said you are not going to audiotape. Good.
I wish you luck with your neighbors, but if your neighbors don't wind up moving, perhaps you SHOULD take baystategirl's advice and consider a move yourself...I hear Arizona has laws you might like!

 

[lcannister]

We have filed a million dollar lawsuit and are also suing them to move. Are you with me so far?

 

[donovanatee]

Donovanatee - As much as I would like to respond to just about everything you said, I am going to control myself and just say this:
In your first post you asked if it was legal to secretly audiotape, and this question was answered - right away and thoroughly. You were told it was illegal and now you have said you are not going to audiotape. Good.
I wish you luck with your neighbors, but if your neighbors don't wind up moving, perhaps you SHOULD take baystategirl's advice and consider a move yourself...I hear Arizona has laws you might like!

I don't like being forced to create ways to defend myself against false allegations.
I spend every February in Arizona, and will likely retire there, thanks. To be clear,
I put up cameras, fences, stone walls, filed criminal and civil actions in an effort
to get neighbors to stop the harassment. To a certain degree it has worked.
Their behavior was much worse before I took these actions. If they would simply
STOP the daily screaming, I would be happy to drop the matters in both courts. It's not about money or revenge. I just want them to keep their foul mouths shut when I drive home to attempt having quiet enjoyment of my family and property. Ya fallla?

As for the legality of taping, I was told here that it was both illegal and could possibly be
legal if they had knowledge that my property was being recorded. Case law was
cited, and if the police are unable to convince the neighbors to stop the harassment,
I may look further into the law. Bill collectors call my cousin who lives in Massachusetts
and say this is Scary Collection Agency and this call is being recorded. Don't know if it's
legal, and don't care. I do suspect there is an argument that could be made about
the other party having knowledge versus giving consent.

Moving is simply not an option for a variety of reasons at this time. If it were, I'd have
already moved. I would like cut and dried answers and easy solutions, but there simply
aren't any here. We've never had a neighbor problem before - ever. The police are
working with us to resolve the issues and we are grateful to them. Thanks for your
information. While I am taking the advice offered here for the time being, I will also
be looking into the case law cited by Orcons. I did not ask for advice about anything
other than the law regarding audiotaping, and do not appreciate the pompus response
from you and Bay about moving. If you want to stress that this forum is about discussing
law, then you might try sticking to points of law.

 

[donovanatee]

Is that your legal advice?

 

[Caveman]

Dude

Is that your legal advice?

you sound a little paranoid about being recorded. Maybe have a Bartletts and James, man. If you can have a wine cooler to cool yourself off it is no skin off us macho men. We would prefer it to this Whoa.. Takes me back to my neanderthal days when I was just reaching for a bone dude, and I got clubbed because, well I yelled a little bit because it was hot. I am not saying your neighbors are not rude, just that there are other ways Legal ways that need to be done to go about getting them out. We are trying to help you and you keep sticking a fork in our hands.

Just say " Thanks for your support and do what the frog you are going to do and get off the website before you mess with anymore of my friends here. Dude."

Heard and not heard, answered and not yet no credence. I feel I am at my mammoths house again and she just does not GET IT.

 

[donovanatee]

My question has to do with "neighbors & boundaries", and I have been given two opposing answers:

You say this: You are certainly free to tape the sights and sounds of your own property to your heart’s content." Which is all I want to do, and I am quite willing to post notice that I am doing so.

Other say this: " Why can't you record audio on your own private property?" BECAUSE IT IS ILLEGAL IN MASSACHUSETTS!"

Please direct me to another section of the site if I have inappropriately posted my question here, and thank you for the information.

 

[Ozark_Sophist]

You have credibility problems with law enforcement by your admission. What interpretation of your audio recording do you believe LE will take when your neighbor makes a complaint?
You also state this is a matter of he said/she said. My advice is move. I predict you will not prevail in your lawsuit and ultimately be responsible for your neighbor's legal fees.