At-Will Employment Question

[Linz62982]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? All (except Montana)

Hello everybody.. I was wondering if anybody could tell me why almost every state has at-will employment?. Just recently at my job, 2 co-workers were fired out of the blue. One of them was here for a year and one of them was here for almost 3 years. Nobody knows what happened as nobody including management hasn't told any of us anything. Obviously we all know they can't say WHY they were fired, but I'm kind of surprised certain people don't know what happened so we know what to do from here on out like who to contact in their department. They were here one day, loved by everybody (that I could tell), hard workers, etc... and gone the next. Now I can't say for certain that something serious wasn't going on behind closed doors, however as far as I know, that's not the case.

So all this led me to look up stuff and I found out about the at-will employment a little more in depth. One of the searches that came up, said that your employer could fire you for nothing at all. I guess this is confusing for me because I get not being able to fire anybody for illegal reasons (race, sexuality, etc..), however at the same time is it just me that feels that there should be SOME sort of protection on reasons for terminating someones employment?.

A few years ago, I was hired at a day care center. Everything was going great and probably a month after I was hired, I found out that I was pregnant and informed my manager, and about 5 days later I was fired because of "overstaffing". Obviously the thought of "was I fired cause of overstaffing? or because I was pregnant? entered my mind. But of course because I was told it was overstaffing issues, there was nothing that I could do legally..

So Im curious.. Considering the at-will status.. Who is saying that somebody couldn't get fired for an illegal reason, but use a decoy reason so it appears legal?. Essentially, where is our protection with our jobs?. As much as almost all employers won't do this, you can be fired for anything.. They don't like your shoes one day, they don't like your hairstyle, etc.. Which as I said, most employers won't do that but it has definitely made me think about this... Who's saying an application might come in with better qualifications than someone, they want that other person more, but then they're told blatantly, you're just not needed anymore.

I know I kind of rambled, but I'm really curious about this... Is it just basically you can really never get fully comfortable at your job because of this?. If anybody has any input, I'd love to hear it

 

[cbg]

I don't know who told you that because you were told it was overstaffing there was nothing you could do, but they were wrong. What you could have done was reported to the EEOC that you were fired three days after the announcement that you were pregnant. The EEOC would have investigated to find out whether there was REALLY an overstaffing issue or not. The overseeing agencies can usually tell pretty well when a firing is a pretext.

But if this happened a few years ago, it's too late now.

I will be the first to admit that the system is flawed. However, you don't have to work in HR, or for that matter answer questions on this forum, without seeing the problems involved with requiring a reason. Who gets to decide what is a valid reason? Who gets to draw the bright line about when performance is bad enough to warrant dismissal or not? What level of proof is required? What happens when the employee denies doing what he did, or doesn't believe their work is poor? Yes, there are some employers who lie, but there are a lot of employees who lie too.

And what about an employee's privacy? I can understand why you want to know why your friends were fired, if they were fired, but there are some privacy regulations, depending on the circumstances, that may limit what can be said. For that matter, even if there are no regulations governing the issue, would you want the entire office gossiping about why you don't work there any more?

It costs money to fire someone and hire someone new, so the fact of the matter is people simply don't get fired for no reason. They may be fired for a good reason or a bad reason and yes, occasionally people get fired for illegal reasons. But few if any employers wake up in the morning and say to themselves, "I don't have anything much to do today, I think I'll fire someone" and then draw a name out of a hat.

Yes, the system is imperfect. But can you think of a better one?

 

[PayrollHRGuy]

Another reason for "at-will" employment is that in many countries where it is hard to fire an employee employers simply don't hire as they would otherwise.

Also, keep in mind that "at-will" works both ways. It also means an employee can quit whenever they want.

 

[commentator]

I worked in employment and unemployment for over thirty years, and you're way ahead of the pack that you even realize what "at will" employment means or that it exists. Yeah, true, it also means you can quit at will. I guess that is something we should be glad for. Though it's not something that has been a huge problem for most people.

But yes, they really can fire you for almost any reason there is. And then it's pretty much up to you to show it was an illegal reason, even if it pretty much was. The example of what happened to you those years ago, when you told them you were pregnant and were suddenly let go might possibly have been something the EEOC would've been interested in, and they'd have investigated and then you'd have been maybe issued a right to sue letter and then you'd have had to hire an attorney to take your case to court, and a long time after it all happened, you might've gotten some redress for being fired because you were pregnant.

In most cases, there isn't a clear cut reason like that, and most employers are pretty leery of being that blatant about discharging someone. But they are fairly safe in doing it. Those things that used to protect you? They were called labor unions, and people don't think they need those any more. They're living in fairy land. Because the employers are pretty much in the control seats and they make the employment laws through their paid lobbyists and it's going to be good for them, not the individual employee.

If you are terminated without a good valid reason you always have the right to file for unemployment insurance, which is designed to be an insurance program for people who are put out of work through no fault of their own. It is funded by taxes taken from employers based on how many people they employ. This is a temporary, very small amount of money that you receive for a short time if you are determined to be eligible, which means that your employer cannot demonstrate to the agency that they did have a valid misconduct reason to terminate you. If you are let go by the employer due to downsizing or closure of the business or lack of work you also qualify for this unemployment insurance, but it's not much and it doesn't last long.

There is absolutely no legal obligation for your employer to tell the other employees why they have terminated someone. In fact, they generally do not. Any time you hear yourself asking, "They can't do this to me, can they?" most of the time, the answer is "Oh yes they can, because there is not a specific labor law which prohibits them from doing it."

 

[Linz62982]

Thank you so much for all your replies!. It has shed a little bit of light on the situation. After this incidence happened with my 2 fellow co-workers, it kind of made me really look into at-will a bit deeper. I always kind of knew about it, but this instance I guess really opened my eyes to it. It does make sense that there is a fine line of what is acceptable and whatnot.. It just seems like there is nothing protecting us whatsoever and I was confused. Like I mentioned, it could be that they did something really messed up and I just don't know about it....and as you all mentioned, I agree that I won't know about it. I didn't really expect to know the reason why they were fired...I guess I was more surprised that we weren't told that they weren't coming back, or where they were, etc... so we know what needs to be done now since they were both the only 2 in that department (who to call now, etc...). We are all so used to calling either of them if something in that department needs to be taken care of, but now since they are both gone, we have no idea who to call, who to tell people to call, etc..

And I'll actually be straight up honest with you, years ago when that incident happened with me, nobody really told me I couldn't or not to look into it further, I just kind of let it go. Guess that was a mistake on my part.. I just figured there wasn't any way I could prove it.. I was a lot younger and a lot more naïve. My son is now 11 so this happened almost 12 years ago, and after I was fired my now ex-husband agreed that I could just stay at home and raise him, so I never took it any further. But I appreciate you letting me know what the process would be if that or another similar instance was to happen again!. I honestly didn't know about that.. I figured if that was the reason that they gave you, then that was it..

But this definitely helped a lot!. Thanks again!

 

[cbg]

I've been on both sides of the desk. I've been the one to have to give the bad news, and I've been the one let go. And you know, it sometimes seems "wrong", but there are times when someone really is a bad fit for a position and the best thing to do is cut ties, but there really isn't anything quantifiable that you can point to. I once had to fire someone who lied about her qualifications and just couldn't do the job; she practically kissed me when I let her know she shouldn't come back the next day and when I met her on the street a few months later she hugged me. She knew she couldn't do it and was relieved to be out. On the other hand, I also once had to fire someone because the boss ordered me to; I understood why he wanted her out but I couldn't for the life of me explain to her what she was doing wrong. It wasn't that she couldn't do the job; she could. But she didn't have the right personality for the company culture (I didn't either - the boss and I mutually agreed a few months later that I should look for another job). It really was best for her as well as for us, but explaining it to her was next to impossible.

I wish I had a better answer for you. Thanks for understanding.