Confused

[Chrln_little]

I live in Maryland. I have an attorney but I am still confused. My attorney is very busy and since she has a lot of investigating to do, and we have different shifts, it is hard to contact her. There is not a current custody agreement in my situation and there never has been.

My children's father and I split up 4 years ago on December 23, 2006. Due to the fact that at the time I was in a situation where I was not able to make my own income because I was on bed rest with our second child, I allowed my oldest son to live with him. I had him every weekend and on every holiday. After our second child was born, I allowed my oldest son to remain with his father with me having him on every weekend and every holiday, so that I would not confuse him and upset his entire life. Our yongest son lived with me full time and spent about 5 hours with his father on Sunday. Now, looking back, these are not the best decisions I had ever made.

In June of this year, there had been major changes in my oldest son's attitude. (At this point he was 4 and his little brother, who stayed with me full time was 3.) I thought that maybe it was just resistance to authority at first, but then I realized that it was something more. After talking to him, and his fathers mom, I found out that the way my ex was containing my son at night when he would not listen, was by putting him in his room and locking the door from the outside.

I did not allow him to return to his fathers house and I called CPS. CPS did not find any wrong doing, but I still felt that it was a problem that was being covered by his father. Since I had both of the children, he immediately filed for custody of one child (our oldest). I am currently recieving child support ordered by the court with help from Socical Services.

Currently he has not seen thems since June of this year, by his choice. Mediation was a complete waste of time and money, my ex's father would not allow him to make a custody agreement. (He values what his father says like it is gold). He does call about once a week to talk to the kids and I let him, because having a father is very important. However, at the end of every phone call he asks to speak to me. His language is vulgar and threatening and very abusive. He calls me names and says that the entire situation is my fault.

I want my kids to have their father, if he can change his drinking and his attitude/control issues. They deserve their father, but I don't deserve the way that he treats me. He does not say anything bad to the kids and he is not mean to them on the phone. He however, changes his mind often about any type of visitation with the kids, sometimes he says he wants to see them but sometimes he says tells me, not them, that he does not ever want to see them.

I don't know how to handle this situation since his personality and view points change so often. I am not out to get him, even though he feels that I am, and I try to see things from his point of view. I try to work with him and calm him down when he gets irrate but it has gotten to the point where he won't even refer to me by name, only the B word.

What should I do?

 

[Proserpina]

You should consult with your attorney and listen to her advice.

We honestly cannot responsibly second-guess your attorney; she has all of the relevant details of your case while we do not.

 

[CourtClerk]

However, at the end of every phone call he asks to speak to me. His language is vulgar and threatening and very abusive. He calls me names and says that the entire situation is my fault.

I'm going to agree that you should be listening to your attorney and ONLY your attorney, but I will comment on this one part...

If this is an issue, this is your issue to be had. There is no reason why you can't just take the phone from jr., and say "ok now, it was nice hearing from you.. ta ta!!!" and hang up the phone. You're CHOOSING to sit on the phone and take this mess.

 

[mistoffolees]

I'm going to agree that you should be listening to your attorney and ONLY your attorney, but I will comment on this one part...

If this is an issue, this is your issue to be had. There is no reason why you can't just take the phone from jr., and say "ok now, it was nice hearing from you.. ta ta!!!" and hang up the phone. You're CHOOSING to sit on the phone and take this mess.

Ordinarily, I'd agree, but I might reserve judgment in this case.

Dad has status quo with the oldest child. However, the child is with Mom for a while (since June). It might be to her advantage to keep him there a little while longer to move the status quo to her side. Since Dad doesn't object, she's not doing anything wrong.

HOWEVER, she probably doesn't want to rock the boat. She may need another month or two before her claim is solid (she should depend on the attorney's advice on this matter), so it MIGHT be worth putting up with Dad's screaming for a little while longer.

 

[CourtClerk]

so it MIGHT be worth putting up with Dad's screaming for a little while longer.

It is NEVER in my opinion ok to have to put up with someone's screaming and "verbal abuse." If he wants to talk, fine, talk like you have some sense, other than that, let him talk to a dial tone.

You never EVER give someone an opportunity to disrespect you. Once they do it once or twice, you'll have a hard time getting them to stop.

 

[LdiJ]

It is NEVER in my opinion ok to have to put up with someone's screaming and "verbal abuse." If he wants to talk, fine, talk like you have some sense, other than that, let him talk to a dial tone.

You never EVER give someone an opportunity to disrespect you. Once they do it once or twice, you'll have a hard time getting them to stop.

I wholehearted agree. Its very simple to say something along the lines of, "you are obviously in a bad mood right now so clearly its not a good time to talk. I will be happy to talk to you when we can have a more productive discussion."...then click.

It could be pushing either 5 months or 6 months that both children have been with mom, depending on when in June the children started living with mom. Therefore mom is very close to being able to claim status quo on her end. June 1 to December 1 is six months.

 

[mistoffolees]

I wholehearted agree. Its very simple to say something along the lines of, "you are obviously in a bad mood right now so clearly its not a good time to talk. I will be happy to talk to you when we can have a more productive discussion."...then click.

It could be pushing either 5 months or 6 months that both children have been with mom, depending on when in June the children started living with mom. Therefore mom is very close to being able to claim status quo on her end. June 1 to December 1 is six months.

Which is why I suggested holding off for a couple of weeks before antagonizing Dad.

Hanging up could set him off - and set her back immensely in what she wants to do. Listening to him could get her child back with her much, much sooner.

I'd be more than willing to let my ex yell at me if it got my child back into a position of safety sooner.

 

[Chrln_little]

That is exactly why I have not simply hung up on him. The last date he saw them was June 18th. I know in the state of Maryland it takes 6 months so I haven't tried to make the situation worse. Hanging up on him would only make the situation worse and him more angry. I was hoping he would eventually boil himself dry but at this point he has not. I of course try to say things like, "I am sorry you feel that way. That is not what I am trying to do. I am not trying to make you less important. Can you please realize that I am not doing this against you, I am doing this for them."

The yelling and screaming at me is not a new event, it has been going on since we split up. However, I think at this point he is begining to go above and beyond what he did before because he feels that he has lost control. He has always been obsessed with controlling me and feels that since we have children together that I am his property. Honestly, I do not see this getting anywhere at all, even after court.

Is it possible to have a court order for some program (besides coparenting and mediation) that can teach us how to get back on track and better deal with each other? I am passive and he is aggressive so pretty much it just ends with me quitely listening to him screaming and me trying to hide the fact that he upset me from the kids. That is not something my kids should witness and if he will do it over the phone, he will do it face to face eventually.

 

[LdiJ]

Which is why I suggested holding off for a couple of weeks before antagonizing Dad.

Hanging up could set him off - and set her back immensely in what she wants to do. Listening to him could get her child back with her much, much sooner.

I'd be more than willing to let my ex yell at me if it got my child back into a position of safety sooner.

Well, first I have to say that her child is already WITH her, so getting the child back sooner is not an issue. She already has the child.

I am really not at all sure how I can explain this to you and have it make any sense based on your view of the world. With your sense of the world based on a sane and rational position.

I do understand exactly what you are saying, but you also have to understand that the more youthful male view of the world is quite different than yours.

 

[mistoffolees]

Well, first I have to say that her child is already WITH her, so getting the child back sooner is not an issue. She already has the child.

Are you being intentionally obtuse?

She has the child - only because Dad is willing to leave the child there. Legally, Dad can come get the child at any time. What I am suggesting (and OP and her lawyer apparently agree) is that it's worth waiting a short while longer until she is in a position to LEGALLY change custody.

Getting yelled at for another few weeks is a small price to pay to get to a position that you can legally ensure that the child stays with you. Sticks and stones and all that.

I am really not at all sure how I can explain this to you and have it make any sense based on your view of the world. With your sense of the world based on a sane and rational position.

I do understand exactly what you are saying, but you also have to understand that the more youthful male view of the world is quite different than yours.

What in the world does that have to do with anything? Do you think that throwing out random sentences is supposed to constitute a rational argument?

And when did YOU start speaking for 'the youthful male view of the world'? If there is such a thing, I'm far more qualified to speak of it than you. After all, I was once a youthful male and you never were.

 

[mistoffolees]

That is exactly why I have not simply hung up on him. The last date he saw them was June 18th. I know in the state of Maryland it takes 6 months so I haven't tried to make the situation worse. Hanging up on him would only make the situation worse and him more angry. I was hoping he would eventually boil himself dry but at this point he has not. I of course try to say things like, "I am sorry you feel that way. That is not what I am trying to do. I am not trying to make you less important. Can you please realize that I am not doing this against you, I am doing this for them."

I've expressed an opinion and others have expressed a different opinion. Your best move is to do what you and your attorney agree is best.

The yelling and screaming at me is not a new event, it has been going on since we split up. However, I think at this point he is begining to go above and beyond what he did before because he feels that he has lost control. He has always been obsessed with controlling me and feels that since we have children together that I am his property. Honestly, I do not see this getting anywhere at all, even after court.

Is it possible to have a court order for some program (besides coparenting and mediation) that can teach us how to get back on track and better deal with each other? I am passive and he is aggressive so pretty much it just ends with me quitely listening to him screaming and me trying to hide the fact that he upset me from the kids. That is not something my kids should witness and if he will do it over the phone, he will do it face to face eventually.

There are circumstances where a court might order counseling, but as a VERY general rule, counseling doesn't work unless both parties enter into it willingly and are willing to change.

Rather, you should focus on what YOU can do - which means 2 things:
1. Learn what sets him off and try to avoid it
2. Learn to deal with the muck he throws at you.

It's not fair, but I like CourtClerk's statement: "If someone tells you life is fair, punch them in the face and walk away".

You might want to consider counseling for yourself - with the focus being on how to deal with him. I have some books I can recommend based solely on the small amount of information you've provided. If they don't apply, no harm done, but if they do apply, they might help you. Most of them should be in a decent sized library and I think they're all still in print:

Boundaries - Anne Katherine
Stop Walking on Eggshells - Paul Mason, Randi Kreger
Children of the Self-Absorbed - Nina Brown
Narcissism - Alexander Lowen

Good luck.

 

[Perky]

First, let me say upfront that I agree the ex should not be abusive or threatening on the phone. Just want to be clear on that.

However, I can understand the father's anger. Again, I don't agree with the way he expresses it, but I sure understand why he's angry. OP agreed to and allowed the father to have custody of the son for 4 years, from a very young age. Then she calls CPS because she heard that he locks the son's bedroom door from the outside. CPS finds nothing wrong, but she won't return the son.

Is he irrational? Yep, and I think a lot of people would be, regardless of age or generation. He raised his son from infancy, and has now been separated from him for 5 months. I imagine when OP says he's had opportunities to see the children, she means that he can visit in her home, under her supervision. I'd be pretty upset about that too.

So, OP's question was, "What should I do?" I'll have to agree with Pro on this, because my response would not constitute legal advice.

 

[Chrln_little]

First, let me say upfront that I agree the ex should not be abusive or threatening on the phone. Just want to be clear on that.

However, I can understand the father's anger. Again, I don't agree with the way he expresses it, but I sure understand why he's angry. OP agreed to and allowed the father to have custody of the son for 4 years, from a very young age. Then she calls CPS because she heard that he locks the son's bedroom door from the outside. CPS finds nothing wrong, but she won't return the son.

Is he irrational? Yep, and I think a lot of people would be, regardless of age or generation. He raised his son from infancy, and has now been separated from him for 5 months. I imagine when OP says he's had opportunities to see the children, she means that he can visit in her home, under her supervision. I'd be pretty upset about that too.

So, OP's question was, "What should I do?" I'll have to agree with Pro on this, because my response would not constitute legal advice.

Actually, he did not raise him from infancy. Our son lived with him since he was 15 months old and with me every weekend and every holiday. But I do see your point. Of course I could not describe the entire situation, as you do not have time for filling you in on an entire 4 years of life. Yes, I do see his point

I forgot to address one of the points you had made Perky. I have never tried to tell him that he had to visit them in my home. I do not allow him in my home any longer because of the way he talks to me. (Probably for the last 3 years). I have told him that he can come pick the kids up and have them every other weekend and holidays of his choice. However, the grandfather does not allow this because it is inconvienent. I have tried working things out where he can pick them up at different intervals throughout the week because of the inconvience, but the grandfather says no.

At this point I think you get the idea. If my children's father said he did not want to see them and it was his own original idea, I would say, okay, but if you change your mind later let me know because they need their father. Since it is grandpa that is making the decisions because he loves the joy of others being miserable, it is a bit irritating. Of course I am not asking for the grandfather to go away, only mind his business. (My ex is in his 30s)

I have appologized on many occasions for upsetting him, but what kind of mother would I be if my son says "daddy locks me in a room" and I did not call CPS? Before calling CPS, I called him to ask about the situation. I figured if it were not true, he would be willing to talk to me about it and then we could sit our son down and say that he could not tell lies to make mommy and daddy turn against each other. However, this is not the response I got. The response I got was, "What happens in my house is my business and if you know what is good for you, you will shut up and leave me alone." followed by a dial tone.

 

[Proserpina]

Since my original advice evidently did not quite hit the mark ( ), and the discussion has continued...I did have one more comment.

Frankly, I can understand how CPS (and many others for that matter) could see that type of punishment (OP, you DID imply that kiddo was sent to his room and couldn't be contained therein) as being nothing more than a difference in parenting styles.

Kiddo was sent to his room. Kiddo couldn't be contained in his room. Hence Dad "locking" the door.

Now if kiddo was locked in his room constantly, and without any supervision on the "outside", I could see that being a problem.

But as a disciplinary method, short term? Some parents do that.

I'm not saying it works, either. It might with some kids. It might not. However since CPS have found there's nothing wrong going on at Dad's, it maybe that Mom has to do what a gazillion other estranged parents have to do when they disagree with the other parent's parenting style:

Suck it up.

*shrug*

 

[LdiJ]

Since my original advice evidently did not quite hit the mark ( ), and the discussion has continued...I did have one more comment.

Frankly, I can understand how CPS (and many others for that matter) could see that type of punishment (OP, you DID imply that kiddo was sent to his room and couldn't be contained therein) as being nothing more than a difference in parenting styles.

Kiddo was sent to his room. Kiddo couldn't be contained in his room. Hence Dad "locking" the door.

Now if kiddo was locked in his room constantly, and without any supervision on the "outside", I could see that being a problem.

But as a disciplinary method, short term? Some parents do that.

I'm not saying it works, either. It might with some kids. It might not. However since CPS have found there's nothing wrong going on at Dad's, it maybe that Mom has to do what a gazillion other estranged parents have to do when they disagree with the other parent's parenting style:

Suck it up.

*shrug*

This is just for education purposes, for the sake of anyone who might be reading this thread.

For 15 years I was the CFO for a small corporation that nationally distributed high end door hardware. As such, I had to be familiar with laws regarding such.

In most municipalities, in most states, it is seriously illegal for any door hardware to be installed that allows bedroom doors to be locked from the outside. Why?, because if there is a fire, the persons locked inside the room cannot escape the room independently of help from someone else who might be incapacitated in the fire.

CPS should know this and should come down hard on any parent who has hardware installed that allows them to lock a child in a bedroom (beyond traditional baby gates of course).

Any parent who installs any hardware device that locks their child into a room with no avenue for the child to escape in a fire, is seriously being stupid. Maybe the child wouldn't survive a fire anyway, but to lock your child in so that your child has no avenue of escape if you are incapacitated is idiocy.