What is the name of your state? Michigan, Hi, I have two credit cards with MNBA. Due to our financial problems, we called them to try and pay a settlement to eliminate this debt. Last November, we agreed to a figure and the Rep said for me to let two cycles of payments pass so we can show we need help due to our settlement agreement figure was a little less then half what we owed. So we skipped two payments (never missed a payment before). I now received a "passed due" threat saying that my rate will jump up to 24.99% if I don't pay. I called them and told them about our settlement and I haven't heard back if it was approoved yet. She told me it wasn't approoved and now I owe late fees. I did some looking online and found a site that told me I might not have to pay my credit card bill at all because of the word "Ultra Vires". Which means "a contract made by a corporation and scope of its corporate powers is unlawful". The collection of interest on credit cards is a violation of all usery laws. By lending credit, they have unjustly enriched themselve, etc. Can you give me advice about ultra vires? So I mentioned Ultra Vires to the rep the other day and I just received a call from MNBA a rep saying our origional figure is ok with them to settle. Why would they do this if I might have something on them.....thanks, Joe
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Credit Card Problem..
- Thread starter JBigcat23
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seniorjudge
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"...Last November, we agreed to a figure and the Rep said for me to let two cycles of payments pass so we can show we need help due to our settlement agreement figure was a little less then half what we owed...."
What did they say when you faxed them the written agreement?
What did they say when you faxed them the written agreement?
Joe,
The stuff you are reading on the internet about credit cards being illegal because they loaned you their credit (or any other such argument) is pure nonsense. Don't believe a word of it.
If MBNA is now willing to settle with you for the original deal (I think that is what you are saying) and you are willing and able, do the deal. What happened in the past is not worth arguing over. Even if you have to pay a late fee, think of the big picture. You want to get this behind you at a price you can afford.
Before you send money, ask for a settlement letter. The settlement letter should say something like, "Joe will pay x dollars on or before y date. MBNA agrees to fully release Joe for all liability for account number so-and-so".
They should not have a problem faxing such a letter to you. They do it all the time.
Email me directly if you have questions. Debtguy@hotpop.com
The stuff you are reading on the internet about credit cards being illegal because they loaned you their credit (or any other such argument) is pure nonsense. Don't believe a word of it.
If MBNA is now willing to settle with you for the original deal (I think that is what you are saying) and you are willing and able, do the deal. What happened in the past is not worth arguing over. Even if you have to pay a late fee, think of the big picture. You want to get this behind you at a price you can afford.
Before you send money, ask for a settlement letter. The settlement letter should say something like, "Joe will pay x dollars on or before y date. MBNA agrees to fully release Joe for all liability for account number so-and-so".
They should not have a problem faxing such a letter to you. They do it all the time.
Email me directly if you have questions. Debtguy@hotpop.com
Get current w/ MBNA if your settlement is not accepted. Then try to pay them off or transfer to another cc. They hooked you into gettiing behind so as to boost the rate. You cannot offer settlement with these %$#@(*^'s from a current position. However you can make them answer your requests for information under the 30-year old federal truth in lending act. This way you are current(no default) and they will continue to violate the law while you press them for disclosure. Once those violations add up you leverage the balance and take the position as plaintiff in a federal action. Is the balance under $25,000 and on a personal account, not business?
As for the "ultra vire" argument, all national banks are working on the fringe of their respective corporate charter. What they do with your signature is legal-they made it so. However, it is unlawful in that full disclosure of material facts and consideration and value are not given to you at inception of the so-called agreement. It's technical, yet simple to understand if you put in the time. It's based in accounting maneuvers. Don't argue this unless you fully understand what it is you may be in for for.
The truth is incontrovertible, malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end; there it is. -Winston Churchill
Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago's publication Modern Money Mechanics(page 7) states:
"Loans are made by crediting the borrower's deposit account, i.e.,by creating additional deposit money."
It's fundamental to understand the money creation process in order to get a grip on the reality of the banking system. The above credit liability(your credit owed to you by the cc company) from the bank to you (via your deposit or signature) is supported by your deposit. The property in the deposit money changes hands, or passes to the bank and becomes an asset they never had prior. The bank does not possess your deposit, they now own the gift you gave them. Question: What cost did the financial institution assume in issuing you the deposit receipt?
No conspiracy yet! This is legal. However, it is unlawful. Clue: basic contract law.
Yes, no one is forced to take on debt. You are in debt by default. Our currency is interest-bearing, bought with borrowed funds based on a deposit or promise to pay. There's more!
Just keep an open mind and all will fall into place.
As for the "ultra vire" argument, all national banks are working on the fringe of their respective corporate charter. What they do with your signature is legal-they made it so. However, it is unlawful in that full disclosure of material facts and consideration and value are not given to you at inception of the so-called agreement. It's technical, yet simple to understand if you put in the time. It's based in accounting maneuvers. Don't argue this unless you fully understand what it is you may be in for for.
The truth is incontrovertible, malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end; there it is. -Winston Churchill
Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago's publication Modern Money Mechanics(page 7) states:
"Loans are made by crediting the borrower's deposit account, i.e.,by creating additional deposit money."
It's fundamental to understand the money creation process in order to get a grip on the reality of the banking system. The above credit liability(your credit owed to you by the cc company) from the bank to you (via your deposit or signature) is supported by your deposit. The property in the deposit money changes hands, or passes to the bank and becomes an asset they never had prior. The bank does not possess your deposit, they now own the gift you gave them. Question: What cost did the financial institution assume in issuing you the deposit receipt?
No conspiracy yet! This is legal. However, it is unlawful. Clue: basic contract law.
Yes, no one is forced to take on debt. You are in debt by default. Our currency is interest-bearing, bought with borrowed funds based on a deposit or promise to pay. There's more!
Just keep an open mind and all will fall into place.
Forget the accounting mumbo-jumbo. It is confusing and ignores reality.
Think about the real life exchange of goods and services.
The bank issued you a credit card. You went down to the gas station and pumped a tank of gas in your car. You gave your credit card to the attendant and they allowed you to drive away based on the promise of the issuing bank to pay them for your tank of gas. The bank pays cash to the service station for the gas. The bank sends you a bill for the gas purchase.
If you pay the bill then the cycle is complete.
If you don't pay and claim the bank did an illegal act by "crediting your deposit account or some such nonsense", then what happened?
Did you get the gas? Yes.
Did the gas station get paid for the gas? Yes.
Did the bank pay the gas station real money? Yes.
If you don't pay, who loses? The bank.
If you don't pay, who gains? You.
How on earth can anyone not see this example as a free and fair exchange of goods and services based upon mutual promises and obligations?
Modern Money Mechanics is an academic analysis of macro economic principles in a modern capitalist economy. It is not a manifesto for social or political revolution.
I defy you to find a lawyer anywhere who agrees with the BS nonsense about having no obligation to repay your debts because of "Modern Money Mechanics". The only such nonsense comes from conspiracy advocates and activists who apparently have nothing better to do that to mislead and misinform strangers.
There are lots of things immoral with the way credit card banks operate -- but, this ain't one of them.
Think about the real life exchange of goods and services.
The bank issued you a credit card. You went down to the gas station and pumped a tank of gas in your car. You gave your credit card to the attendant and they allowed you to drive away based on the promise of the issuing bank to pay them for your tank of gas. The bank pays cash to the service station for the gas. The bank sends you a bill for the gas purchase.
If you pay the bill then the cycle is complete.
If you don't pay and claim the bank did an illegal act by "crediting your deposit account or some such nonsense", then what happened?
Did you get the gas? Yes.
Did the gas station get paid for the gas? Yes.
Did the bank pay the gas station real money? Yes.
If you don't pay, who loses? The bank.
If you don't pay, who gains? You.
How on earth can anyone not see this example as a free and fair exchange of goods and services based upon mutual promises and obligations?
Modern Money Mechanics is an academic analysis of macro economic principles in a modern capitalist economy. It is not a manifesto for social or political revolution.
I defy you to find a lawyer anywhere who agrees with the BS nonsense about having no obligation to repay your debts because of "Modern Money Mechanics". The only such nonsense comes from conspiracy advocates and activists who apparently have nothing better to do that to mislead and misinform strangers.
There are lots of things immoral with the way credit card banks operate -- but, this ain't one of them.
How does the bank lose?! They didn't pay the merchant with their money?
In order for a contract to be binding both parties have to be at risk. How is the at risk when they never put up any of their own money?
I won't argue that people are responsible for paying their debts but what the Banks are doing is wrong! They set a trap and wait for people to step in. Once you're in there is no getting out and they know it!
They charge exhorbant rates and fees which make it impossible for most people to pay off their cards. Most people, in reality, have paid their "debt", several times over but due to interest and fees they are STILL paying.
I speak with 100's of people struggling with cc debt. Most had it under control until LIFE HAPPENED!! Divorce, serious illness or loss of job are the majority of reasons for cc debt...not overspending! Oddly enough divorce, serious illness and loss of job are what happens to many when they are suddenly faced with out of control cc debt.
One man comes to mind...he paid his credit card each month with no problems. Then one day he found himself paralyzed from the chest down, unable to ever work again, collecting enough disability to pay the neccessities. Do the cc co's care about peoples plights? Hell no! "Hey they aren't (or can't) make their payment?" "Charge them more interest, more fees, force them into bankruptcy."
Our Fiat "funny money" Monetary System is UNCONSTITUTIONAL but for some odd reason it's legal? Maybe it's because that funny money is what lines the politicians pockets? Fractional Reserve Banking? Disfunctional Reserve Banking is more like it!
Keep reading Joe!!!! Pick up The Creature from Jekyll Island! Also look for Billions For the Bankers, Debts for the People (can probably find that online)!
Read what you can and form your own decision. Get out of debt, stay out of debt and empower yourself with knowledge!
Veronica1228
Senior Member
MamaLuna said:
I have to say, even as a banker that I agree with a lot of what you said 99%. The only thing that I want to point out, is that most people enter into their credit agreements of their own free will. If they do not understand that when they use credit it must be paid back, that is not the bank's fault either. Most people would be wise to stay away from credit cards altogether, but if they enter into a credit agreement, and break their part of it (willingly) then they must be prepared to suffer the results.
I understand that things happen. Illness, unemployment, deaths, etc., but while this is out of your control, it is also not the fault of the card issuer either. I agree that there should be more understanding on the side of the creditor, but just think about it. How many people would try to get out of their debt by claiming that they've just been diagnosed with cancer and are no longer able to work to pay their credit card bills? For every legitimate claim there would be 100 false ones. If your business depended on the "word" of others, how long do you think your business would last?
Just stay out of debt people. Credit cards are dangerous in the wrong hands!!!
The agreement first, then the money
The agreement and the binding thereof is the key. The money or "credit" is secondary.
I'm sorry, but the accounting is the reality. You cannot shy away from it if you are to fully understand and go up against a bank.
If you pay the gas station attendant with your cash(federal reserve note), the government is your agent promising payment, backed by the full faith...
If you pay by your check, the bank is your agent honoring your promise to pay. The check is not money. It is a promise to pay money.
If you pay with your credit card, the credit card company is your agent and you believe(rightfully so) that they are paying the station on your behalf with their net asset, be it their own money or other card holders or depositors money. The station must pay a merchant discount of 1-3% to the cc co. for the convenience of the consumer not having the cash or check. The merchant loses. Now, in law, the cc voucher at the point of sale is not only the evidentiary instrument, it is the funding instrument. The cc agreement is an open-ended revolving line of credit. Each time you use your card you are creating a new tranaction agreement, a new "deposit" that is electronically created thereby allowing the cc co. to create a new dollar amount of "checkbook" money which was not in existence before. They simply create it from your credit limit and pay the station or merchant with your funds, not their money. It is the appearance of risk that keeps you thinking that they pay on your behalf. The merchant discount, before it is captured, is your funds. The cc co. fails to disclose this material fact to you. You believed all along they were using their funds. They fail to disclose that the funds originate with you. Another material fact undisclosed.
However, banks and financial institutions are restricted in lending their own credit as well as their depositor's credit. We learned in school that banks loan out other depositor's money. But this is simply not the case. This is a federal question and all one must see is the bank's corporate charter. The goverment in it's infinite wisdom gave away the money creation process to the private bank allowing them to issue cost-free credit which then allowed government access to any amount of money at any time. This is the partnership which leads to inflation. They inflate and contract the money supply at the whim of the prevailing political wind.
But don't accept what I say as the truth. Perform you own due diligence and if you have moral fiber it will stick. The bank is not losing any money it was entitled to from the outset. They scoop your equitable substance at deposit. The don't risk a f------ dime. You are the one who creates wealth. The bank is there to extract it on behalf of the government. They must entice you into debt in order to destroy purchasing power for its own sake. Our system is one giant credit card. Since it is all debt obligations then the accuring interest has to come from somewhere to pay back the borrowed funds that bought our currency. Remember, the currency is a interest-bearing note, a liability. And that interest which is forged by the sweat equity of the population is taxes. But that's another discussion.
If your cc balances are small, pay them off and close them down. If they are large and you can't pay, start doing the homework assignment of your life.
The agreement and the binding thereof is the key. The money or "credit" is secondary.
I'm sorry, but the accounting is the reality. You cannot shy away from it if you are to fully understand and go up against a bank.
If you pay the gas station attendant with your cash(federal reserve note), the government is your agent promising payment, backed by the full faith...
If you pay by your check, the bank is your agent honoring your promise to pay. The check is not money. It is a promise to pay money.
If you pay with your credit card, the credit card company is your agent and you believe(rightfully so) that they are paying the station on your behalf with their net asset, be it their own money or other card holders or depositors money. The station must pay a merchant discount of 1-3% to the cc co. for the convenience of the consumer not having the cash or check. The merchant loses. Now, in law, the cc voucher at the point of sale is not only the evidentiary instrument, it is the funding instrument. The cc agreement is an open-ended revolving line of credit. Each time you use your card you are creating a new tranaction agreement, a new "deposit" that is electronically created thereby allowing the cc co. to create a new dollar amount of "checkbook" money which was not in existence before. They simply create it from your credit limit and pay the station or merchant with your funds, not their money. It is the appearance of risk that keeps you thinking that they pay on your behalf. The merchant discount, before it is captured, is your funds. The cc co. fails to disclose this material fact to you. You believed all along they were using their funds. They fail to disclose that the funds originate with you. Another material fact undisclosed.
However, banks and financial institutions are restricted in lending their own credit as well as their depositor's credit. We learned in school that banks loan out other depositor's money. But this is simply not the case. This is a federal question and all one must see is the bank's corporate charter. The goverment in it's infinite wisdom gave away the money creation process to the private bank allowing them to issue cost-free credit which then allowed government access to any amount of money at any time. This is the partnership which leads to inflation. They inflate and contract the money supply at the whim of the prevailing political wind.
But don't accept what I say as the truth. Perform you own due diligence and if you have moral fiber it will stick. The bank is not losing any money it was entitled to from the outset. They scoop your equitable substance at deposit. The don't risk a f------ dime. You are the one who creates wealth. The bank is there to extract it on behalf of the government. They must entice you into debt in order to destroy purchasing power for its own sake. Our system is one giant credit card. Since it is all debt obligations then the accuring interest has to come from somewhere to pay back the borrowed funds that bought our currency. Remember, the currency is a interest-bearing note, a liability. And that interest which is forged by the sweat equity of the population is taxes. But that's another discussion.
If your cc balances are small, pay them off and close them down. If they are large and you can't pay, start doing the homework assignment of your life.
credit card help
Good Luck
cheryl
Joe you may want to check out this website. They may be able to help you eliminate your credit card debt completly. www.debtnemesis.comJBigcat23 said:
Good Luck
cheryl