furiousdad

[mikado]

What is the name of your state?What is the name of your state? Washington
Yesterday my daughter was in a local grocery store. She and a friend were in an area where there had been shoplifting earlier that day, and she was detained. She is multi racial, and has chosen to have bright colors highlighting her hair. When she told the manager she had not taken anything, the manager replied "yes you did, you were seen by an employee and a customer" she replied you and they are wrong look here I have nothing and started to empty her pockets. The manager replied " no, you and your friends have been doing this a long time and we finally caught you" they asked a young man, also a minor to step back in the store, and he refused. My daughter pulled her cell phone out of her pocket, which she had put away earlier to look at hair coloring just before all of this happened, and called her mother. Her mother told her to let the manager talk to her and the manager refused and told her to hang the phone up. Her mother told her to show him her pockets and leave the store. The manager refused and told her to wait right there, when she told him she was leaving, that her mother told her to, he got between her and the door and backed her into the corner with two other employees. They took her upstairs where another girl was with an officer and being charged with shoplifting. She was asked questions about how long she had been shoplifting and so on. She again denied it in front of the officer and offered to him to search her. He told her he had no right to do that. Meanwhile the manager was filling out his form for what she dicribed as a criminal tresspass warrant and made her sign it stating she would never be allowed in the store again, if she did come back on the property she would go right to jail.
My daughter and my wife were in a rage and very distressed emotionally when I got home. Iwent to the store and tried to get some answers only to have another shift of managers confuse my daughter with the girl who actually did shoplift. Please let me know if these idiots can violate my daughter right like this and what laws they have broken. I am seeking a lawyer Tuesday morning first thing but would like a little piece of mind between now and then.

 

[USMOM]

Definately go see a lawyer. He had no grounds to detain her. Especially after she emptied her pockets. Have you thought about contacting the American Civil Liberties Union. Her civil liberties were violated. First, a store owner cannot just detain someone. He may hold her there only as long as it takes for the authorities to arrive. The authorities take it from there. Since the police were there already, he should have taken her to them and allowed them to do their job. They didn't arrest her so they didn't find reason. Also, that store owner cannot force anyone to sign anything. The fact that she did sign means nothing. She is a minor and cannot legally make agreements. That store owner needs to be taken to task. And by the way hair color and being in the wrong place are not sufficient reasons to suspect someone of a crime. He therefore cannot make a citizen's arrest which is why store owners are allowed to hold suspected shoplifters until the police can be summoned. Good luck.

 

[BelizeBreeze]

Definately go see a lawyer. He had no grounds to detain her. Especially after she emptied her pockets. Have you thought about contacting the American Civil Liberties Union. Her civil liberties were violated. First, a store owner cannot just detain someone. He may hold her there only as long as it takes for the authorities to arrive. The authorities take it from there. Since the police were there already, he should have taken her to them and allowed them to do their job. They didn't arrest her so they didn't find reason. Also, that store owner cannot force anyone to sign anything. The fact that she did sign means nothing. She is a minor and cannot legally make agreements. That store owner needs to be taken to task. And by the way hair color and being in the wrong place are not sufficient reasons to suspect someone of a crime. He therefore cannot make a citizen's arrest which is why store owners are allowed to hold suspected shoplifters until the police can be summoned. Good luck.

Where did you get this crap? From the back of a Cheerios box?

As for the CORRECT answer:

In Washington State law there is no specific crime called shoplifting, instead, retail theft is included in the statutory definition of theft. Most shoplifting incidents involve merchandise worth less than $250 and are classified as theft in the third degree. This is a gross misdemeanor carrying a maximum penalty of up to $1,000 and/or a jail term of up to one year. Actual sentences for adults are at the discretion of the court, and for special courts or "conference committees" administer juveniles.

Washington also includes a civil law for recovery of retail theft. Washington’s civil shoplifting law, RCW 4.24.230, became effective in September 1975 . This law created a civil cause of action which the merchant may bring directly against the apprehended shoplifter, or the parents or guardians of shoplifting minors. It is not intended to supplant the criminal law, nor should it be used as a substitute for vigorous law enforcement action.

R.C.W. 4.24.220

A civil defense

In any civil action brought by reason of any person having been detained on or in the immediate vicinity of the premises of a mercantile establishment for the purpose of investigation or questioning as to the ownership of any merchandise, it shall be a defense of such action that the person was detained in a reasonable manner and for not more than a reasonable time to permit such investigation or questioning by a peace officer or by the owner of the mercantile establishment, his authorized employee or agent, and that such peace officer, owner, employee or agent had reasonable grounds to believe that the person so detained was committing or attempting to commit larceny or shoplifting on such premises of such merchandise.

As used in this section, "reasonable grounds" shall include, but not be limited to, knowledge that a person has concealed possession of unpurchased merchandise of a mercantile establishment, and a "reasonable time" shall mean the time necessary to permit the person detained to make a statement, and the time necessary to examine employees and records of the mercantile establishment relative to the ownership of the merchandise.

As for the A.C.L.U. they will not become involved in a civil complaint since a business cannot impeed the exercise of individual rights per definition. And the assumption that a minor cannot make a legal agreement is also false. A minor can legally make a contract or agreement in all 50 states. The ONLY difference between a minor and an adult is the right of recission that a minor enjoys where an adult may not recind.

Now, to Mikado: Was the 'officer' in your post a police officer or a loss prevention officer hired by the store?

 

[rmet4nzkx]

Please consult your attorney on Tuesday and don't take seriously someone who can't support any of their claims with law or case law.

Get over the fact that your daughter is bi-racial and trying to use that as an excuse to get out of trouble when you already admitted that your daughter was shoplifting earlier the same day, just because she hadn't shoplifted again doesn't mean they can't detain her or trespass her from the store.

Don't worry, the ACLU won't take this case either because she was caught shoplifting and or aiding and abetting, your daughter doesn't have a RIGHT to STEAL just because she is bi-racial!

You better start being a parent NOW before your daughter gets into more serious trouble than shoplifting.

Quit making excuses.

Thank You BB for citing the law, something which USMOM should think about before replying in the future.

 

[USMOM]

Mikado First of all he stated that she emptied her pockets immediately and she had nothing. The store owner cannot detain her without a reason to suspect that she has taken something. His right to detain her ended when he found out that she hadn't. Mikado, go to the ACLU website. I could do a bunch of cutting and pasting as belize has from the State of Washington Shoplifting Prevention website, but I wouldn't want to leave out important parts of the information out as belize has. There is a lot of information there and they offer information to let peolpe know how they should procede in such a case. That info will only help the attorney you said you would hire. Belize By the way, I got my information from training from the Juvenile Justice Authority. Where did you get yours? You can't just cut and paste from a website and call it good advice. State laws come into play of course, but there are also Federal laws to be considered. In fact, there have been state laws that have been thrown out because they violated civil liberties. Also, Mikado did not say he thought that his child could steal because she is bi-racial. He only indicated that the store owners prejudice may have been a factor.

 

[BelizeBreeze]

Mikado First of all he stated that she emptied her pockets immediately and she had nothing. The store owner cannot detain her without a reason to suspect that she has taken something. His right to detain her ended when he found out that she hadn't. Mikado, go to the ACLU website. I could do a bunch of cutting and pasting as belize has from the State of Washington Shoplifting Prevention website, but I wouldn't want to leave out important parts of the information out as belize has. There is a lot of information there and they offer information to let peolpe know how they should procede in such a case. That info will only help the attorney you said you would hire. Belize By the way, I got my information from training from the Juvenile Justice Authority. Where did you get yours? You can't just cut and paste from a website and call it good advice. State laws come into play of course, but there are also Federal laws to be considered. In fact, there have been state laws that have been thrown out because they violated civil liberties. Also, Mikado did not say he thought that his child could steal because she is bi-racial. He only indicated that the store owners prejudice may have been a factor.

And I have had enough of your completely erroneous postings. I suggest you speak with the forum administrator about your membership.

 

[USMOM]

There is nothing wrong with my postings. You just don't like to be challenged. You had the facts wrong in the last case. You have to get the facts right before you can cite good law. The administrator can contact me if he/she sees that it is warranted. I doubt it.

 

[rmet4nzkx]

Mikado First of all he stated that she emptied her pockets immediately and she had nothing. The store owner cannot detain her without a reason to suspect that she has taken something. His right to detain her ended when he found out that she hadn't. Mikado, go to the ACLU website. I could do a bunch of cutting and pasting as belize has from the State of Washington Shoplifting Prevention website, but I wouldn't want to leave out important parts of the information out as belize has. There is a lot of information there and they offer information to let peolpe know how they should procede in such a case. That info will only help the attorney you said you would hire. Belize By the way, I got my information from training from the Juvenile Justice Authority. Where did you get yours? You can't just cut and paste from a website and call it good advice. State laws come into play of course, but there are also Federal laws to be considered. In fact, there have been state laws that have been thrown out because they violated civil liberties. Also, Mikado did not say he thought that his child could steal because she is bi-racial. He only indicated that the store owners prejudice may have been a factor.

Here is what OP said:
"She and a friend were in an area where there had been shoplifting earlier that day, and she was detained. She is multi racial, and has chosen to have bright colors highlighting her hair." I'm not going to waste my time here explaining it over again, BB has already done that. OP went on to state that the store owner had witnesses to her earlier thefts. Being bi-racial or having brightly colored hair is not a defense. OP admitted they had been shoplifting earlier, it doesn't matter that her pocket were empty. No the ACLU will not take the case it doesn't affect a protected class, teenage shoplifters are not a protected class. If all she is being is trespassed, she is lucky. The store owner has a right to protect the store from theft.

 

[USMOM]

Here is what OP said:
"She and a friend were in an area where there had been shoplifting earlier that day, and she was detained. She is multi racial, and has chosen to have bright colors highlighting her hair." I'm not going to waste my time here explaining it over again, BB has already done that. OP went on to state that the store owner had witnesses to her earlier thefts. Being bi-racial or having brightly colored hair is not a defense. OP admitted they had been shoplifting earlier, it doesn't matter that her pocket were empty. No the ACLU will not take the case it doesn't affect a protected class, teenage shoplifters are not a protected class. If all she is being is trespassed, she is lucky. The store owner has a right to protect the store from theft

He stated that there had been a shoplifting earlier in the day and that his daughter was detained. Even though the explantion could have been worded a little better it is clear from the rest of the story that she wasn't detained with the other girl or she would have been upstairs with her and not in the store. He did not state anywhere that she had admitted to shoplifting at anytime. If you would read my last post a little better. I suggested the ACLU website for information. I did not ever say that they would send out an attorney. They do, however, provide information to those who feel that their civil liberties may have been violated. I agree that a store owner may protect themselves against theft. There was no theft, her pockets were empty. He could ask her to leave the store at any point, but not hold her just because he suspected that she had stolen in the past. Re-read the original post. You are using things that were never said in your argument.

 

[rmet4nzkx]

USMOM,
YOU reread the original post and quite rewording it to prove your case.

 

[stealth2]

Actually, Mikado's post is unclear the way it's written whether there had been an unrelated shoplifting earlier in the day and the daughter was detained on suspicion of involvement, or whether the daughter had shoplifted there earlier in the day and had been identified by an eyewirness.

sigh.... It would be so nice if people tried to write clearly.

And her racial makeup is totally moot.

 

[mikado]

Please consult your attorney on Tuesday and don't take seriously someone who can't support any of their claims with law or case law.

Get over the fact that your daughter is bi-racial and trying to use that as an excuse to get out of trouble when you already admitted that your daughter was shoplifting earlier the same day, just because she hadn't shoplifted again doesn't mean they can't detain her or trespass her from the store.

Don't worry, the ACLU won't take this case either because she was caught shoplifting and or aiding and abetting, your daughter doesn't have a RIGHT to STEAL just because she is bi-racial!

You better start being a parent NOW before your daughter gets into more serious trouble than shoplifting.

Quit making excuses.

Thank You BB for citing the law, something which USMOM should think about before replying in the future.

You should read more and spout less!
She was not stealing, just in the wrong place at the wrong time. While the manager seems to think her and her friends color and hair are reason to detain them, I do not.
I have not and will not take advice from someone as simple as you.
If you are a parent I hope for your childs sake you get the whole story before you go off on them like you did on me.

Signed a GREAT father.

 

[mikado]

Here is what OP said:
"She and a friend were in an area where there had been shoplifting earlier that day, and she was detained. She is multi racial, and has chosen to have bright colors highlighting her hair." I'm not going to waste my time here explaining it over again, BB has already done that. OP went on to state that the store owner had witnesses to her earlier thefts. Being bi-racial or having brightly colored hair is not a defense. OP admitted they had been shoplifting earlier, it doesn't matter that her pocket were empty. No the ACLU will not take the case it doesn't affect a protected class, teenage shoplifters are not a protected class. If all she is being is trespassed, she is lucky. The store owner has a right to protect the store from theft.

OP went on to state that the store owner had witnesses to her earlier thefts. Being bi-racial or having brightly colored hair is not a defense. OP admitted they had been shoplifting earlier, it doesn't matter that her pocket were empty.
Not sure where you get this from my statement. There were no ealier thefts on her or her friends part. I think her offering to show she had not taken anything does matter. Her color or fashion is NOT a defense but should not be the only reason for her being detained since she made it quite clear they had made a mistake.

 

[mikado]

Actually, Mikado's post is unclear the way it's written whether there had been an unrelated shoplifting earlier in the day and the daughter was detained on suspicion of involvement, or whether the daughter had shoplifted there earlier in the day and had been identified by an eyewirness.

sigh.... It would be so nice if people tried to write clearly.

And her racial makeup is totally moot.

The shoplifting was unrelated to my daughter being there looking at hair coloring. The manager stated that her and her friends and been seen in the past shoplifting. She told him he was wrong. The so called witness to this. Was never produced or even named. There is a racial problem in this area, sorry that seems moot to you.

 

[mikado]

Where did you get this crap? From the back of a Cheerios box?

As for the CORRECT answer:

In Washington State law there is no specific crime called shoplifting, instead, retail theft is included in the statutory definition of theft. Most shoplifting incidents involve merchandise worth less than $250 and are classified as theft in the third degree. This is a gross misdemeanor carrying a maximum penalty of up to $1,000 and/or a jail term of up to one year. Actual sentences for adults are at the discretion of the court, and for special courts or "conference committees" administer juveniles.

Washington also includes a civil law for recovery of retail theft. Washington’s civil shoplifting law, RCW 4.24.230, became effective in September 1975 . This law created a civil cause of action which the merchant may bring directly against the apprehended shoplifter, or the parents or guardians of shoplifting minors. It is not intended to supplant the criminal law, nor should it be used as a substitute for vigorous law enforcement action.

R.C.W. 4.24.220

A civil defense

In any civil action brought by reason of any person having been detained on or in the immediate vicinity of the premises of a mercantile establishment for the purpose of investigation or questioning as to the ownership of any merchandise, it shall be a defense of such action that the person was detained in a reasonable manner and for not more than a reasonable time to permit such investigation or questioning by a peace officer or by the owner of the mercantile establishment, his authorized employee or agent, and that such peace officer, owner, employee or agent had reasonable grounds to believe that the person so detained was committing or attempting to commit larceny or shoplifting on such premises of such merchandise.

As used in this section, "reasonable grounds" shall include, but not be limited to, knowledge that a person has concealed possession of unpurchased merchandise of a mercantile establishment, and a "reasonable time" shall mean the time necessary to permit the person detained to make a statement, and the time necessary to examine employees and records of the mercantile establishment relative to the ownership of the merchandise.

As for the A.C.L.U. they will not become involved in a civil complaint since a business cannot impeed the exercise of individual rights per definition. And the assumption that a minor cannot make a legal agreement is also false. A minor can legally make a contract or agreement in all 50 states. The ONLY difference between a minor and an adult is the right of recission that a minor enjoys where an adult may not recind.

Now, to Mikado: Was the 'officer' in your post a police officer or a loss prevention officer hired by the store?

Thank You,
This is what I was looking for when I posted our statement.
In answer to your question, the officer was a city police officer in the managers office dealing with the girl who had been caught shoplifting, and was being charged with it. When my daughter told him that the manager was wrong and tried to empty her pockets, the officer stated he had no right to search her. He stated that the manager was going to handle her questioning, and get her to sign a tresspass document.
Thanks again for responding.
Mikado