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Mistakenly filed for unemployment under 'laid-off' - facing charges of fraud

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unemployedwrkr

Junior Member
What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Washington

After nearly three years of working for my employer, early this month I was randomly called in and told I was being let go, for no stated reason other than it not turning out to be a "good fit." I went home and applied for unemployment benefits that same day, but when asked whether I had been "fired" or "laid-off", I chose "laid-off." Now my employer has contested that discharge scenario and I've received paperwork indicating that I may have committed fraud.

The truth is I can see now that I made a mistake, but I only selected the "laid-off" option after carefully consulting the definition put forward by the WA Employment Security Dept., which states that they treat any job loss as a layoff if "your employer is not replacing you." One of the examples they give is when: "Your position was eliminated."

I worked as a retail sales associate, who was essentially a 'floater' - someone extra for helping out customers, re-stocking, etc., secondary to the more established department heads. It was clear that I was not going to be replaced by any new hire (and I still haven't been), as we were now headed into the slow season, and my position was being at least temporarily eliminated.

Does it really qualify as fraud to misinterpret the definition of being laid off? They never actually used the word "fired" during the meeting in which my employment was terminated. And even if they had, I read a paragraph on this page (https://esd.wa.gov/unemployment/laid-off-or-fired) describing the exact circumstances of my employment termination and calling it a layoff.

If I lose these benefits I'll be in quite a sorry situation. Any advice on this would be greatly appreciated.
 
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justalayman

Senior Member
, if the employer is contesting your unemployment, I suspect there was some misconduct involved.

making an error is not fraud. If you used the wrong term, simply explain what you have here and as you understood it, being laid off was the appropriate response.
 

unemployedwrkr

Junior Member
Thank you for the response. I don't know if my employer is contesting the unemployment itself, or merely the claim that I had been laid off as opposed to fired. There was no record or even mention of misconduct at any point.

I'll take your advice and try to explain the circumstances just as I've done here.
 

Stephen1

Member
Thank you for the response. I don't know if my employer is contesting the unemployment itself, or merely the claim that I had been laid off as opposed to fired. There was no record or even mention of misconduct at any point.

I'll take your advice and try to explain the circumstances just as I've done here.

Understand that some employers contest every UI claim. They believe that in the long run this policy pays for itself by reducing the number of claims that actually get paid. If you don't follow the guidance on the letter you received from the state explaining how to contest this, then they win.
 

commentator

Senior Member
You are not very far along into the system, and you should not be panicking yet. Yes, they always mention fraud,etc., in each and every communication. They want you to answer the questions carefully and truthfully, and they do, eventually try to shake out the truth of the situation as to why you are out of work. "Lack of work" is what is called a "clean claim" which means, they let you go, it was their decision, due to something that was not your fault, for example, they are cutting staff and no longer had a position for you. In this scenario, since they are the driver, they would not contest your claim. (By the way, in many cases, especially those big box sales places, they do not ever personally contest any claims. Their claims are dealt with by a consulting firm, which would contest any claim in which a person says they are laid off due to lack of work after the employer has terminated them due to "lack of good fit" or whatever)

If you were a floater, and you were let go because they no longer needed you, they certainly should have told you that. If you were let go because you were "not a good fit" that is the answer you should have given the unemployment system, regardless of how many ways you read and felt like you could interpret what it said on the claims form. It was either lack of work or it wasn't. They told you that, or in most cases, will give you a separation notice that says that if you are truly being downsized due to lack of work.

Either way, there is an extended process that will happen before it is determined if you committed fraud, have money to pay back, penalties to suffer for receiving this money fraudulently, etc. The problem with putting down "lack of work" as the reason for termination is that sometimes this results in your beginning to receive payments on a claim to which you are not entitled. This gets you overpaid. Since you were overpaid because of misinformation you supplied to the unemployment claims system, you will not only end up having to pay the money back, you'll end up with penalties, which means you will owe back more than you have received.

First of all, remember, no claim is needs based. How much you needed the money will have nothing to do with whether or not you are asked to pay the money back, are penalized, etc. It is doubtful if you cooperate with the appeals process and go through all the steps, that you would ever end up being prosecuted in civil court. They do not prosecute every case in which someone has been determined to have committed unemployment fraud, as this would be the only crime they'd ever have time and court facilities to prosecute if they did it.

In order to receive unemployment benefits, you must be out of work THROUGH NO FAULT OF YOUR OWN. The reason you chose to use when you filed your original claim may not have been accurate. But it is important that you separate these two issues, the reason you chose to mark on the initial claim you filed, and the reason you were actually separated from your employer, as the unemployment system will.

What will happen is that your money has stopped. You will get no more benefits until there are some decisions made concerning your claim. But you keep making the weekly certifications for benefits while you are in the claims investigation and appeals process.

If it were to turn out that you are approved, they'd probably do some penalties and adjustments, based on your reporting an incorrect (fraudulent)reason for separation initially, but you may turn out with an approveable claim in the long run.

They will begin to investigate the actual reason why you were let go from your job. It sounds as though "not a good fit" is the employer's euphemism for something they had a problem with related to your job performance. What is this? Are you telling us you don't know? You are trying to say you have not got a clue? Truly? Have you ever had any warnings, any write ups, ever been giving any verbal or written indications that there was SOMETHING about your performance that you needed to correct?

If you're really this blameless, you've been left so totally in the dark about your work performance and whether or not it was pleasing to the employer, and you then were called in and told you were being let go because you were "not a good fit" then you would have a pretty good chance of being able to ultimately collect benefits, even though you falsified the original reason for separation.

In order to let go an employee and keep them from receiving unemployment benefits, the employer should be able to show that they made the employee aware of problems, that the employee was given an opportunity to correct said problems, and that the employee did not do so, thus forfeiting the job.

This is the issue they'll determine first. There will be an "initial decision" made, based on what you tell the unemployment system at this point, and what the employer tells them. If you'd put any sort of "let go for cause" answer on your initial claim, they'd have already gone through this.

Instead of no questions asked, they'd have asked you a bunch. They would have been related to did you receive warnings, did you have any write ups, what was said on the very last day you worked, all questions designed to home in on the issue of whether or not you had control of your job performance or whatever you were doing that the employer did not like and wanted to let you go over.

After the initial decision, there'll be a chance to appeal for the side that does not prevail. Usually the big box stores and those who hire contractors to handle their unemployment will appeal each and every one of these claims, so even if you are approved, they'll appeal, so don't take this personally. There will be another hearing, this time with the store's representative, and with you and the appeals officer. Second appeal decisions are made here.

Even if you are approved, then we get around to the second issue, your possible fraudulent filing. Though usually in situations where a person is initially approved, receives some money from unemployment, and then later is determined not eligible in the second decision, it is considered a 'non fraud' overpayment, and is not pursued quite as vigorously, this one, based on your little "lack of work" glitch, may incur a fraud overpayment, which means more emphasis on getting that money repaid, possibly with penalties.

If you are determined to be overpaid, in other words, they discover that you have been terminated for a valid misconduct reason, that you were given warnings which you failed to heed, and then terminated, you'll be found ineligible, and you will be found to have been overpaid any monies you did receive. In most cases, if a person is first approved and then denied, they're overpaid, but not fraudulently overpaid. They have to pay the money back, but without penalties.

Because you received this money after fraudulently informing the system that you were laid off through no fault of your own, you'll very likely also be charged penalties in addition to owing just the basic money back.

Yes, as I've often said, there is never a downside to filing a claim for unemployment benefits, even if you're fired for the best reason in the world and you know it. The downside is if you file and lie about the reason why you are no longer working at the company, and get yourself overpaid before the company finds out you've done it and protests.

This is what gets you penalties. Don't worry about going to jail or something like that, you're far from there. But it is entirely possible you'll be repaying this money with penalties if you lose all the appeals and are determined ineligible. They won't put you in debtor's prison or anything if you just don't have the money to repay this, but they will keep dibs in on your future earnings, your future unemployment benefits, and your future tax returns until the money is repaid.

But go on, finish out the whole appeals process. There's a change you'll get approved, and you may be able to take care of this situation with the unemployment benefits you get to draw after the dust all settles.
 
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cbg

I'm a Northern Girl
Outside of the unemployment system, and occasionally within it, to be truly considered a layoff there must be a real chance that your employer will call you back to work. If there is no chance that the employer will recall you, then you have been fired. Even if they do not replace you. Even if they eliminate the position.

Just for future reference.
 

unemployedwrkr

Junior Member
Thanks for the additional insight into all of this, I greatly appreciate it. The frustrating part is that I wasn't trying to make any fraudulent claim, I just thought that my employment discharge met the objective criteria for a layoff as defined by the Employment Security Department itself.

There were certainly tensions between me and the management, but that had been the case almost from day one (they were in violation of several health and labor regulations, and I was the only employee who ever spoke up about it). But there was never any indication from them, either written or verbal, that I was engaging in any misconduct or other behaviors that could result in termination.

I was initially prepared to file under the category of fired, but upon consulting the UI website's own definition of what constitutes a layoff, it seemed quite clear to me that my situation fit into that category. In retrospect, I was also upset and resistant to the idea that I had been fired, so the possibility that, in objective terms, what happened was actually a layoff also held an emotional appeal.

To sum up, I'd never been fired for no reason before ("not a good fit" isn't a reason, it's an empty phrase), and in looking at the circumstances, the line between a virtually groundless firing and a layoff came to seem blurred. As someone not responsible for any particular department (and on long-term light duty owing to a serious work injury), there was always a relative "lack of work" for me during the off-season. I was still seen as a "good fit" earlier this year, during the busy summer months, while I took over various departments for people on vacation. Then I'm arbitrarily let go once their need for an extra body is reduced? It's quite obvious that my termination was about reducing payroll costs during a downturn, plain and simple. I'm guessing that a lot of so-called firings operate under a similar logic, as essentially just disguised layoffs.
 

Zigner

Senior Member, Non-Attorney
Thanks for the additional insight into all of this, I greatly appreciate it. The frustrating part is that I wasn't trying to make any fraudulent claim, I just thought that my employment discharge met the objective criteria for a layoff as defined by the Employment Security Department itself.

There were certainly tensions between me and the management, but that had been the case almost from day one (they were in violation of several health and labor regulations, and I was the only employee who ever spoke up about it). But there was never any indication from them, either written or verbal, that I was engaging in any misconduct or other behaviors that could result in termination.

I was initially prepared to file under the category of fired, but upon consulting the UI website's own definition of what constitutes a layoff, it seemed quite clear to me that my situation fit into that category. In retrospect, I was also upset and resistant to the idea that I had been fired, so the possibility that, in objective terms, what happened was actually a layoff also held an emotional appeal.

To sum up, I'd never been fired for no reason before ("not a good fit" isn't a reason, it's an empty phrase), and in looking at the circumstances, the line between a virtually groundless firing and a layoff came to seem blurred. As someone not responsible for any particular department (and on long-term light duty owing to a serious work injury), there was always a relative "lack of work" for me during the off-season. I was still seen as a "good fit" earlier this year, during the busy summer months, while I took over various departments for people on vacation. Then I'm arbitrarily let go once their need for an extra body is reduced? It's quite obvious that my termination was about reducing payroll costs during a downturn, plain and simple. I'm guessing that a lot of so-called firings operate under a similar logic, as essentially just disguised layoffs.

I suspect that you're really overthinking this. The letter you received has boilerplate disclaimers relating to fraud, etc. I don't think they're accusing you of fraud at this point...
 

cbg

I'm a Northern Girl
Also, "fired" is a very loaded word but it is not a synonym for "bad employee - do not hire". Your average hiring manager is well aware that there can be many reasons why an employee can be fired that do not necessarily reflect poorly on the employee. And take it from me, while I agree that "not a good fit" is very hard to quantify, it is nonetheless very real. And is something that a hiring manager will understand. I've been "not-a-good-fit"-ted myself, but it didn't stop me from getting hired into my dream job within a month.
 

commentator

Senior Member
I agree with the above. You are really too early in the situation to get really upset about what might happen. But the thing is, you made a mistake in saying "lack of work." It may turn out that they did actually let you go due to lack of work, needing to cut the payroll, etc.

Your strongest point is NOT what you read or interpreted or felt about being fired, or what you saw on the website, don't bother to go into these things with the unemployment system person you'll be speaking with. Go into how you had, up to this point, received only positive feedback, you had not been given progressive disciplines of any kind, that you had no indication that your job was in jeopardy, that you would have immediately changed any behavior that you found out was distressing to the employer, and (ready, memorize this one and work it into the dialogue as many times as possible) YOU ALWAYS DID YOUR JOB TO THE BEST OF YOUR ABILITIES.

Forget about how they didn't like you, don't bother to try to report them for violations you were not afraid to speak up about, how you were discriminated against in a thousand little ways, keep it related to the important issues in regard to unemployment, namely, did you know your job was in jeopardy? and Did you do what you could to avoid losing your job?

You can always allow that since you'd been given no previous indications you weren't working out, and you saw that your department was needing to do some cutting back, you sort of felt like that you were being let go for that reason. Tell them exactly what you were told on the last day you worked. It may just fly that you were laid off due to lack of work, with a nasty comment or two thrown in by a boss who just didn't like you.

It is amazingly common for lower level managers to, when cutting staff for business necessities, to take the opportunity to be mean and nasty to the employee, to let them think they're being fired when they aren't. So play this through. The fraud penalties are a maybe, not a given. Your whole approval for claims is a maybe, not a "no way." Keep making those weekly certifications. Don't worry any more about the laid off, not laid off deal until you've settled the rest of it.
 

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