Modification of visitation and other questions

[Exsisto]

What is the name of your state? Indiana

It's been 8 years since our last court date. I never thought much of raising CS but visitation needs to be modified since school is an issue now. It wasn't since the original court order.

Do I have to get a lawyer to file modification?

 

[oneandonly]

A little clarification...

Your order is 8 years old and just now school is an issue?
What does your current order say and how do you want to change it?
I'd consult an attorney for any family law issue, IMO.

 

[Exsisto]

We had the first order when our son was an infant. I never thought of going for more CS, it was never a big deal if it was $10 more, $10 less.

Visitation was rearranged according to the father's seasonal schedule which he no longer has but did for almost six years.

Last year the mid week overnight became an issue when getting to school from the father's house seemed to be more than he could handle as we were a one car family. Step father had the car at work, father has always demanded to pick up and drop off. I have always had his addresses. I have a whole list of them and have known almost everyone he has lived with and have been to almost every place. We agreed verbally that overnight on school nights would only be an evening with no overnight. No problem. But that's not how it states in the court order. As long as things were fair weathered between us I never wanted to rock the boat. I was unaware of any legal this or that and the affects it could have good or bad by not returning to court five years down the road after we had been to court when kindergarten started.

Over the past month and more our son has been telling me things his father is telling him about me. Like "dad says you yell at him all that time and you should stop". "what you are doing is wrong" Speaking of what we are doing about his education and other things I have documented and will not go into here as it is not the topic of my post. The more time goes on the less the father does to do his part beyond visitation and give me static when I don't do exactly as he says and has started to use our son as a shoulder to cry on and a sounding board for things that should only be talked about between he and I. Including having our son call me on the phone asking me where he is supposed to be and when. Literally.

Modifying this court order will find the father in contempt on medical insurance since he hasn't provided it.

This will also find me in contempt for not filing for modification of the court order before change of insurance coverage was made? This will also find me in contempt for overnight mid week visitation withholding on school nights, even with the consent of the father? He agreed to it and there was never a fight or discussion about it after one conversation?

It will find him in contempt for not paying child support for the last four months.

It will find him in contempt for not paying medical coverages that insurance doesn't pay which was agreed and is stated in the court order that he pay.

Since the biological father cannot keep a job our child's step-father keeps him on his insurance and even though the biological father knows about the bills as I tell him he is either unable or unwilling to pay and has left me at two doctor's offices being forced to pay past due bills before our son could be seen. He has in hand $900 worth of bills to date with nothing reimbursed back to myself and step-father for taking care of business.

I wish I could say I use certified mail for this sort of thing. We both signed the bills and I have those copies, he has unsigned copies. I have the originals as well.

Step-father has had the same job/insurance for six years. We took our son off one time when the bio father got insurance, lost the job and lost the insurance. Back on SF insurance when we found out through the doctor's office two months later, not the father. We were notified that if we take our son off of SF insurance again we may not be able to put him back on.

I do part time work with independant contractor work on the side periodically. It keeps me home when our son gets out of school in the afternoon and I am home every night our son is home but these things provide no insurance for me nor our son.

I have to get some things straightened out and lift some burden off of our family finances while a perfectly healthy father that will work for about two to eight weeks with one excuse or another of why his jobs just don't work out. I have to get some things straightened out so I learn how to handle these things better in the future and stop being so scared of the father.

I need some guidance, where to start, what will I need and where this all could possibly end up.

Thanks in advance.

 

[oneandonly]

Okay...

While I do understand now, I also know that the only way to change the order (modification) is with another court order.
I would not do this without an attorney.
And while I do understand a bit more, I hope you understand that child support and visitation are two completely different "things" in court.
Again, I would at least consult with an attorney~
good luck

 

[dixygrl04]

this is to existo's post, i am in the same boat as far as the constant changing of jobs. it's very frustrating, but i have learned to be used to it. i go thru the da's office for cs, and i keep the case open, and every yr when he files, i get what's owed on income taxes. and yet, he continues to believe he's never behind on cs. why would i get the income tax money every yr then? denial can be bliss for some, i guess. right now, my ex is supposedly going to wk in iraq, therefore who knows when the wage assignment will start up again,or if he will even turn it in, he's been known to do it. i'm racking my brain, trying to wk out something so that he doesn't have to continue every other wkend visitations w'stepmom, since dad will be out of country, and when he's in, he can make it up then. i am leary of just doing it without consulting legal advice, because, i don't want to be incontempt, even though dad was out of country. it won't last long, anyway.his trade is trucker, and when he changed jobs and would not always be home, i consulted my attorney and asked why should he go when dad won't be there, make it up when he's home. my attorney said that he's got the order for those wkends and however he does it, but i feel my lawyer could have pushed that. the visitation is for the dad, not step mom. i had a crappy lawyer, and he's too messed up to do his job. of course told me different. it's all sucha crock. it's like damned if i do, damned if i don't, i can't read people's minds. he just goes by what he wants to, when he wants to, and expects me to go along with it, and i'm alittle bit more hi strung than that, and try to talk, be reasonable, but it doesn't wk, no talking to them. but, like i said, i know what youmean about cs, and not wanting to be in contempt. but forme, my main issue has always been cs, and everytime we ever go to court, he's in contempt, they never prosecute him for that, last yr, they served him day after xmas, well he was supposed to go to jail, pay a bond, they misread the papers, had to go back and all, he didn't serve an hr, i just thought that might shake him up a little. but he didn't get the chance for the consequences. he can't pay cs, but he can pay a high priced lawyer. oh yeah, i had medical bills, copays, eye dr bills, etc, that my lawyer told me i could get reimbursement for, and i didn't get crap. also, when my ex was on stand, he told my attorney that he had carried ins on my son, now is that not something that as his mother, i should be informed of? that was a first for me!but they just let all that slide by. he was behind on cs the whole time we were in court, and he even quit and changed jobs during that time, my attorney didn't even address that, he said i can just go thru da. it was all just a crock, for the lawyers to make money. he tried to get custody of my son, instead of paying child support. that's so low down.

 

[Exsisto]

I appreciate your understanding and empathy dixygril.

Is there anyone here that has any answers for me?

I have called the lawyer who helped me with the original court orders. Unfortunately he doesn't do court time anymore due to health problems and will be getting me in touch with people he has worked with before to help me. I just want as much as I can to make sense and whittle it all down before I start spending money.

TIA.

 

[hexeliebe]

Bump

 

[Exsisto]

I'm not sure what I am doing wrong here on these boards because my posts/questions continue to be ignored. I see you guys bust your chops for hours or days on some points saying the same things over and over and then fight amongst yourselves.

Do I need to ask each question one at a time, break it up into sections so my posts aren't so large or do I need to move to another forum? This is all quite important to me, I can understand that I cannot force free advice out of anyone but it's all weighing pretty heavy on my mind.

 

[TiredoftheGames]

Free Legal Assistance...

E,

Have you thought about getting free / low cost legal help from a pro bono or volunteer lawyers' organization? I don't know what they have in your state, and I'm truly no expert, but your local bar association can refer you to sources of this kind of help. The court clerk can also provide a list of organizations to contact.

In my state, there is a volunteer lawyers association that will provide free assistance based on need. They handle custody and divorce matters, so that counts out the issues my fiance faces right now. My point is that you may be able to get the advice you need and the representation in court if only you can find the right source. It's worth a little sweat in the end if you can get the help you need. Don't be discouraged

 

[ellencee]

Exsisto
You will need an attorney if you want the best results but there is a way to get a modification without an attorney if you and the father are willing to be cooperative in all ways. You can file for a modification of visitation and support and ask for mediation to resolve the issues; then you agree to the visitation and support as recommended by the mediator. You can either hire an attorney to get you into mediation or you can file without an attorney. A paralegal in your area should be able to assist you in preparing and filing all of the necessary paperwork. A paralegal does not practice law, so do not expect the paralegal to give you legal advice or to represent your interest.

I read through this thread and I believe you do not quite understand the issue of contempt. Filing a modification or obtaining a modification will not find anyone in contempt of court. Contempt of court is a ruling made by the judge when the judge believes a party has willfully and intentionally refused to abide by the order of the court. By finding a person in contempt, the judge has the lattitude of simply making a finding of contempt and taking no further action or making a finding of contempt and sanctioning the person with some manner of making restitution to the injured party.

In order for one party (a) to ask the court to find the other party (b) in contempt, the first party (a) has to have 'clean hands', which means the first party has to have followed the order of the court and not contributed to the other party's failure to follow the court's order. In your case, it appears that each of you has acted apart from the order of the court and that you have each done so with the permission of the other party, or at least with the tolerance of the other party. It appears that neither of you have 'clean hands' and the court will probably refuse to hear any requests for finding one party in contempt.

Child support and visitation are two separate issues. It is wise to keep that in mind when dealing with the other parent and when talking to the court. In situations such as you have described, it is best to live as if you will never get a penny of the court ordered support. That way, you remain on stable financial ground and when you do get support, even if it's once a year at tax time, you have a bonus income to set aside for the next financial need that the child has--like those medical bills.

You probably do yell at the father and the child knows you do. Hard as it may be, try not to yell at the father. When the child starts telling you what the father said, you need to stop the child and not listen. That is the only control you have over the situation: not allowing the child to be the father's mouthpiece.

I wouldn't get my hopes up over no more midweek overnight visits due to school. The father may have to accept the responsibility of getting the child to school on those mornings, but if it has always been part of the visitation, it will probably remain so.

Before you spend money on an attorney and seek modification of anything, spend some time thinking about what is worth spending thousands of dollars to obtain. Obviously the father's income is not going to allow you to recoup the expense of litigation through increased child support.

I think it is wonderful that you have not been back to court in eight years. I hope that you will give your situation some very deep thought and that you and your husband will sit down and discuss this as a financial or business investment as well as discuss what realistic gains you can hope to achieve.

You will never be able to gain control of the father's behavior and neither you nor the child will benefit from parents' fighting in court over dollars and cents and once a week overnight visitation.

Best wishes,
EC

 

[Exsisto]

TiredofGames, thanks for the kind words. I will be looking into something a lot less expensive than what I have heard is available.

Exsisto
You will need an attorney if you want the best results but there is a way to get a modification without an attorney if you and the father are willing to be cooperative in all ways. You can file for a modification of visitation and support and ask for mediation to resolve the issues; then you agree to the visitation and support as recommended by the mediator. You can either hire an attorney to get you into mediation or you can file without an attorney. A paralegal in your area should be able to assist you in preparing and filing all of the necessary paperwork. A paralegal does not practice law, so do not expect the paralegal to give you legal advice or to represent your interest.

****That's good to know, thank you. It's a start.

I read through this thread and I believe you do not quite understand the issue of contempt. Filing a modification or obtaining a modification will not find anyone in contempt of court. Contempt of court is a ruling made by the judge when the judge believes a party has willfully and intentionally refused to abide by the order of the court. By finding a person in contempt, the judge has the lattitude of simply making a finding of contempt and taking no further action or making a finding of contempt and sanctioning the person with some manner of making restitution to the injured party.

****The purpose of spelling all that out in my post is to point out what he has not done and what I have not done and hopefully find out what could happen to him or I should we end up in court. I don't want to make big trouble for either of us. Hell, all I had to do is tell the father we have to go back to every other weekend once school went back in session after Christmas vacation and our son starts telling me all these things his father is saying about me.

****Before this I heard three things over the course of six months, now it's once a week. Trying to do what is stated in old court orders and attempting to help our son round his life out and relax a bit has caused so much turmoil with the father that his father has chosen to use his nine year old son as a shoulder to cry on as if he were his old buddy from high school. This is what has me thinking we may end up in court, this is what has me thinking there are problems beyond my knowledge and a source of our sons behavioural problems in school leading to testing and possible counseling for our son.

In order for one party (a) to ask the court to find the other party (b) in contempt, the first party (a) has to have 'clean hands', which means the first party has to have followed the order of the court and not contributed to the other party's failure to follow the court's order. In your case, it appears that each of you has acted apart from the order of the court and that you have each done so with the permission of the other party, or at least with the tolerance of the other party. It appears that neither of you have 'clean hands' and the court will probably refuse to hear any requests for finding one party in contempt.

****Modification of court orders that removes the father of the legal repsposibility of carrying insurance but still reimbursing (which is in the current order) the bills is what I want. Who knows what will be decided. Past bills are a done deal, I'm not looking for some huge reimbursement here, just from here on out because the orders state clearly what he should be doing and things are getting very expensive as our son gets older and the father is doing less and less and the financial burden is falling more on myself and my husband.

Child support and visitation are two separate issues. It is wise to keep that in mind when dealing with the other parent and when talking to the court. In situations such as you have described, it is best to live as if you will never get a penny of the court ordered support. That way, you remain on stable financial ground and when you do get support, even if it's once a year at tax time, you have a bonus income to set aside for the next financial need that the child has--like those medical bills.

****I know they are two separate things. The only visitation modification I want is to put in writing that the mid week go from overnight to an evening only. Every other weekend shouldn't need changing. His father looses apartments due to lack of payment and moves from one sleeping room to another regularly. How he is able to aquire them is beyond me. Last year during school we had truancy issues. He demanded to drive both ways yet couldn't get our son to school on time or sometimes at all. I started to show up where he was staying and simply that would start an argument from the father as it probably showed to him that I thought he couldn't handle the responsibility. After much coaxing we were finally able to agree to stop overnight on school nights.

You probably do yell at the father and the child knows you do. Hard as it may be, try not to yell at the father. When the child starts telling you what the father said, you need to stop the child and not listen. That is the only control you have over the situation: not allowing the child to be the father's mouthpiece.

****I do not yell at the father. I don't raise my voice to him. The majority of my communication to him was through email the week before our son tells me that I have been yelling at his father. We had only spoken twice in two weeks and niether was an argument. I started emailing him after a talk turned into an argument two weeks before. Our son was inside getting his things and my husband was in the house. Our son saw me say nothing at all. I stopped when I saw the door open saying "we can talk about this later". The father continued as if he were speaking to both me and our son. This is simply the same thing that I saw happen between the father and his ex-wife and two of their sons when the father and I were together several years ago. These things are in documentation from almost ten years ago before we went to court the first time.

I wouldn't get my hopes up over no more midweek overnight visits due to school. The father may have to accept the responsibility of getting the child to school on those mornings, but if it has always been part of the visitation, it will probably remain so.

****The records at school last year with abscences and unexcused tardies are recorded as being fault of his fathers. Some days they would simply oversleep and he decided our son needed to take a day off school.

Before you spend money on an attorney and seek modification of anything, spend some time thinking about what is worth spending thousands of dollars to obtain. Obviously the father's income is not going to allow you to recoup the expense of litigation through increased child support.

****If we do go to court over anything I go into it owning any expense I put out. I'm not out to increase child support. I never was. It's $60 a week. It's only a big deal when it's not there but boy does it help when it is. I've seen what happens when a CP goes after increases constantly and the NCP can't seem to do anything about it. It's devistating. That's the situation my brother-in-law is and has been in for many many years. He and his youngest daughter live with their parents because he can't afford to pay rent anywhere...and I do mean anywhere.

****It's a simple matter of "hey, you're supposed to be doing this and you haven't for so long, it's really getting expensive and I really need your help. Stepfather is taking care of the insurance but we still have the agreement that you would reimburse. That is still needed. Then it got to "I'm starting to lose my patience" months later when there was no help coming from the father. A couple of months later after still nothing I need to get someone else involved to help make him fufill his legal obligation.

I think it is wonderful that you have not been back to court in eight years. I hope that you will give your situation some very deep thought and that you and your husband will sit down and discuss this as a financial or business investment as well as discuss what realistic gains you can hope to achieve.

****Sure it's been wonderful. I had always hoped we would live happily ever after having to not step foot into a court room ever again.


You will never be able to gain control of the father's behavior and neither you nor the child will benefit from parents' fighting in court over dollars and cents and once a week overnight visitation.

****Controlling the father's behavior with his mouth: The best way I have found to do this has nothing to do with interaction with the father. It's to simply listen to our son when he starts talking, say I'm sorry he has heard what he heard. Make sure he feels valid in anything he expresses and in how he feels, if he says it made him feel bad I apologize that it made him feel bad. I then, by example be who I am, not the person his father is making me out to be. I have confronted the father about his mouth, it made it worse. I'm not out to "control the father", I need for him to not hurt our son but I knew that this is part of who he is and I always knew that this day would come.

Best wishes,

****Thanks
EC