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mike6623

Junior Member
What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Ohio

In the state of Ohio they have a Law that deems all dogs "commonly known as pit bulls"vicious(who decides what is common knowledge?). Not based on behavior, but on breed and or physical characteristics. In the city I live in they have enacted an ordinance that limits citizens to "one pit bull per household". In the state of Ohio, dogs are considered property. I am trying to fight this and I feel as if my constitutional rights are being violated. Some states have an actual ban on breed discrinination, deeming it unconstitutional. The City of Toledo just recently (jan 20, 2010) overtunrned the city oridinance that limits citizens to one pit bull tyoe dog per household.

I would like some opinions on this issue if you please. I am thinking of getting an attorney to try and resolve this, but i'd like to see how other people interested in law think about labling animals dangerous based on looks and not behavior as well as limiting citizens on how many dogs they can own that look a certain way. I proposed to council instead of making people kill their pets, give them a chance to prove thier dog is not dangerous, I was denied. I also proposed limiting those with animals that hacve already bitten to a certain number of animals, considering they have already proven a level of irresponsibility.

Any feedback would be great!
 


It is not unconstitutional to discriminate between dogs based on race, creed, color, sex, religion, gender or sexual orientation. Or, any other reason you can come up with, beyond the designation of service animal.
 

Mass_Shyster

Senior Member
I feel as if my constitutional rights are being violated.
I'm curious. Specifically, what constitutional right do you feel is being violated?

Some states have an actual ban on breed discrinination, deeming it unconstitutional.

If a state court made that decision, the ban likely violates the state's constitution. That decision would not be binding on Ohio.
 
In a 7-0 decision written by Chief Justice Thomas J. Moyer, the Ohio Supreme Court reversed the finding of the Ohio Court of Appeals that Ohio state law R.C. 955.22 and 955.11(A)(4)(a)(iii) and Toledo Municipal Code 505.14(a) are unconstitutional because they define vicious dogs to include pit bulls. A copy of the opinion can be foundin Pending Cases.

Ohio is the only state that has declared dogs known as pit bulls are “vicious” for no reason other than their breeds. Ohio Rev. Code Sec. 955.11(A)(4)(a)(iii).

Vicious otherwise refers to a dog that

(i) Has killed or caused serious injury to any person;

(ii) Has caused injury, other than killing or serious injury, to any person, or has killed another dog.

Ohio Rev. Code Sec. 955.11(A)(4)(a)(i), (ii). See also Ohio Rev. Code Sec. 955.22(A)

In the case of in the case of City of Toledo v. Tellings, the following laws were at issue:

Ohio Rev. Code Ann. § 955.11(A)(4)(a)(iii) which includes in the definition of "vicious dogs" "a breed that is commonly known as a pit bull dog."

Toledo, Ohio, Code § 505.14 which limits ownership of pit bulls to only one per household and requires liability insurance and muzzles when they are in public for "vicious dogs" which by definition include pit bulls.

The Ohio Supreme Court found, “Despite the special relationships that exist among many individuals and their dogs, dogs are personal property, and the state or the city has the right to control those that are a threat to the safety of the community: ‘[L]egislatures have broad police power to regulate all dogs so as to protect the public against the nuisance posed by a vicious dog.’ …The trial court cited the substantial evidence supporting its conclusion that pit bulls, compared to other breeds, cause a disproportionate amount of danger to people. “ … The chief dog warden of Lucas County testified that: (1) when pit bulls attack, they are more likely to inflict severe damage to their victim than other breeds of dogs; (2) pit bulls have killed more Ohioans than any other breed of dog; (3) Toledo police officers fire their weapons in the line of duty at pit bulls more often than they fire weapons at people and all other breeds of dogs combined; (4) pit bulls are frequently shot during drug raids because pit bulls are encountered more frequently in drug raids than any other dog breed."

The Court concluded, "[P]it bulls pose a serious danger to the safety of citizens. The state and the city have a legitimate interest in protecting citizens from the danger posed by this breed of domestic dogs….The statutes and the city ordinance are rationally related to serve the legitimate interests of protecting Ohio and Toledo citizens.”

The Court also found “the term “pit bull” is not unconstitutionally void for
vagueness.” The Court then rejected that pit bull owners should be entitled to notice and a hearing on any determination a dog is a pit bull.

Interestingly, one justice, Justice Maureen O’Connor, agreed with the judgment but said pit bulls are not vicious because of breed. In a separate concurring opinion, the justice wrote, “Almost all domestic animals can cause significant injuries to humans, and it is proper to require that all domestic animals be maintained and controlled. Laws to that effect are eminently reasonable for the safety of citizens and of the animal….Because the danger posed by vicious dogs and pit bulls arises from the owner's failure to safely control the animal, rational legislation should focus on the owner of the dog rather than the specific breed that is owned.”

According to the evidence presented at trial, though, “[t]he dogs were family pets and had no history of aggressive or unlawful behavior."

The lower court pointed out, “Much of the evidence was presented to show that pit bulls which have not been trained to be aggressive are highly obedient, eager-to-please, good family pets. Jed Mignano, a Toledo Humane Society cruelty investigator, testified that pit bulls had been taken into the shelter, did not require special cages or treatment, and were adopted out without problems. He further stated that he had never been bitten by a pit bull and did not experience them to be ‘vicious’ in comparison to other breeds.”

“The state’s expert, Dr. Borchelt, testified that he had never been bitten by a pit bull, that his investigations for housing complaints against pit bulls in New York did not reveal any vicious pit bulls, and that most pit bulls brought to animal shelter were adopted out without hesitation. Karla Hamlin testified that some pit bulls taken into Lucas County Dog Pound exhibited aggressive behavior … [but] she had never been bitten by a pit bull and did not think pit bulls, as a breed, were any more likely to bite or fight than other dogs.

“Dr. Brisbin, along with other experts, testified that pit bulls do not have locking jaws. This information is based on actual dog dissections and measurement of their skulls, concluding that their jaw muscles and bone structure are the same as other similarly sized dogs.

“Recent statistics from reports provided by 44 Ohio county health departments indicated very few bites by pit bulls in 2001 – 2002, with chows, German shepherds, Rottweilers, and Labrador retrievers at higher overall percentages of bites than pit bulls … In addition, testimony was presented that the situations and reasons for any dog attacks, information which was not included in the CDC report, were much more important to the purpose of preventing future injuries than bare numbers.

“One expert testified that most fatal attacks on children could be attributed to lack of parental supervision, rather than inherently vicious dogs.”
 

mike6623

Junior Member
I'm curious. Specifically, what constitutional right do you feel is being violated?



Right to property is what I feel is being violated, and I am not given due process. Typically, someone will have the change to challenge the charge agaisnt them. If someone says my dog is vicious, I should be able to prove my dog is not vicious, and they should be able to prove my dog is vicious. Behavior cannot be determined by appearance, or what you hear on the news or in papers. It is hearsay and most of the time, untrue. The law is to vauge.

There is no specific BREED of dog called pit bull. The only dog with that term in its name is the americanpit bull terrier. The term pit bull is a description and lumps together over 20 different breeds of dogs. How is that constitutional? That would be no differnet than saying anyone with multiple tattoos is considered a danger to society since so many in prison look that way. I know people and animals are different, but it is an anology that makes a lot of sense to me, and a lot of other people as well.
 

mike6623

Junior Member
It is not unconstitutional to discriminate between dogs based on race, creed, color, sex, religion, gender or sexual orientation. Or, any other reason you can come up with, beyond the designation of service animal.

Where did you get this information? Because even though you may think it is true, I would like to see where that is written. If that was the case there would not be so many states that ban that type of legislation.
 

Proserpina

Senior Member
Where did you get this information? Because even though you may think it is true, I would like to see where that is written. If that was the case there would not be so many states that ban that type of legislation.


It is legal because there is no law saying it's not legal. The default position is that if there isn't a law against it, it's not illegal.

The burden is on you to provide a statute which actually says that it is illegal to discriminate against a dog based upon those characteristics...

(hint: there is no such prohibition)
 

Zigner

Senior Member, Non-Attorney
Oh brother! Here we go again...


Pit Bulls (et al) are known dangerous breeds. I am sorry that the government doesn't want to wait until your dog shows its vicious tendencies. I am sure the person and/or the family of the future potential victims are relieved though!
 
I get that information from basic knowledge of constitutional law. The "unconstitutional" theory is not based on any of those things, but on the basic question, "what defines a breed?" If we cannot tell what a breed is, then the law is constitutionally void for vagueness.

If we had a law saying "being ugly" is illegal. It would be unconstitutional as beauty is in the eyes of the beholder and people have a right to have some reasonable way to tell what the law means. That was the argument which was originally upheld by the lower courts in your state regarding the breed. Not that it is discriminatory as to the breed of dog, but, how do we know if a dog is a pit bull? The Supreme Court of your state said, nope, we can tell.

Also, laws must have some rational purpose to be constitutional. (If we're discriminating against a protected interest in PEOPLE, the standard is higher.) The court found there was a rational purpose to the law.
 

mike6623

Junior Member
Oh brother! Here we go again...


Pit Bulls (et al) are known dangerous breeds. I am sorry that the government doesn't want to wait until your dog shows its vicious tendencies. I am sure the person and/or the family of the future potential victims are relieved though!

Well, you are just as ignorant as coucil persons making life or death decisions for animals you know nothing about. You obviously believe the hype.

I bet you didn't know that american pit bull terriers placed higher with the american temperment testing society above labs and golden retrievers.

So no, they are not "known dangerous breeds" for one, as I stated before, pit bull is not a breed. It is a description. You need to research before you spout off ignorant remarks that are false
 

Proserpina

Senior Member
Well, you are just as ignorant as coucil persons making life or death decisions for animals you know nothing about. You obviously believe the hype.

I bet you didn't know that american pit bull terriers placed higher with the american temperment testing society above labs and golden retrievers.

So no, they are not "known dangerous breeds" for one, as I stated before, pit bull is not a breed. It is a description. You need to research before you spout off ignorant remarks that are false


Thou might doeth well not to antagonize the folk who are actually trying to help you...
 
So no, they are not "known dangerous breeds" for one, as I stated before, pit bull is not a breed. It is a description. You need to research before you spout off ignorant remarks that are false
At best, what you're claiming would hurt your case. Are you saying the description of "pit bull" is a known dangerous dog?

Go to an attorney if you wish, but you will be told the same thing at hundreds of dollars an hour.
 

mike6623

Junior Member
Spoke just like any other owner of a pit bull that hasn't snapped yet.

That hasn't snapped yet? It is people like you that are the reason we cannot own certain dogs....because of pure ignorance.

And no, I do not think a dog that looks like a pit bull is born vicious, the state does. This is telling me that I am not innocent until proven guilty. I'm am guilty the moment I get a dog that looks a certain way. There is no way to prove, nor is there any scientific evidence that any dog is more prone to bite than another. In the 70's it was the german shepard, in the 80's it was the doberman, inthe 90's it was the rottweiler, now it is pit bulls.

The facts are this, I live in a city of 48,000 people. 88 dogs in the city are registered as "vicious" only 5 out of the 88 dogs registered as vicious have ever bitten another animal or person. So 83 out of the 88 dogs have never lived up to thier name. I aslo have a bite record from the city/county in which I live. Pit bulls and pit bull mixes are no where near the dog that bites the most.

I just do not see how it is legal to deem an animal dangerous at birth when the animal has nto done anything to be deemed vicous. It makes no sense.
 

mike6623

Junior Member
At best, what you're claiming would hurt your case. Are you saying the description of "pit bull" is a known dangerous dog?

Go to an attorney if you wish, but you will be told the same thing at hundreds of dollars an hour.

What I am saying is, is that american bulldogs, boxers, mastiffs, boxer lab mixes, they are all being called pit bulls when in fact.....they are not. So if you have a boxer, and it bites someone, but prior to the bite you are forced to register that dog as a pit bull (even though it is not) guess what? A "pit bull" bit someone, not a boxer. Even if you have proof your dog is not a pit bull. How is that legal?
 
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