neglect?

[voxdracanis]

What is the name of your state? Utah

My ex wife has custody of our 2 children and 2 other children from previous relationships. We have a strange agreement where I go over to her home and sit with the kids on her way out to work every mourning at 5:30 am. I take the older kids to school and then the younger 2 come with me to my home til I go to work.

My ex has a 2nd job in a bar at night where all 4 of the kids our left with a sitter at least 4 nights a week and at least 1 night a week she leaves them with a sitter so she can go to the bar for pleasure.

Now the home is not getting cleaned and it is now getting to the point that I feel it is becoming a health issue for the kids. I have taking photos of the house on a daily basis as to have a record of whats what. I have made a few attemps to discuss the condition of things with my ex and every time it turns into a fight and I get thrown out of the home.

Due to the fact that there are siblings I feel the kids should stay with the mom. I am torn.

At what point can I turn her in for neglect/abuse because of the living conditions?

 

[Shay-Pari'e]

This is tough because a dirty house is not necessarily neglect. If you have seen conditions that can harm the children, then you need to call CPS. It is always nice to have siblings stay together, but you are the father and these are your children.

 

[LdiJ]

Now the home is not getting cleaned and it is now getting to the point that I feel it is becoming a health issue for the kids. I have taking photos of the house on a daily basis as to have a record of whats what. I have made a few attemps to discuss the condition of things with my ex and every time it turns into a fight and I get thrown out of the home.

Due to the fact that there are siblings I feel the kids should stay with the mom. I am torn.

At what point can I turn her in for neglect/abuse because of the living conditions?

That is a tough question to answer. Part of the reason why it is tough is because there is no real "norm" for cleanliness...and because CPS normally gives a parent lots of chances to "clean up their act"...when cleanliness is the only factor. Basically, it needs to be to the point where health issues are serious (and ongoing) before CPS will act. I have a friend who lives in a manner I can't tolerate. Her home is a disaster...ALWAYS. However it doesn't pose health risks. My aunt had dogs and always had to clean up a major mess when she came home from work...that disgusted me..but it didn't make her unfit because she always cleaned it up.

Basically, you would need to prove that its bad enough to demonstrate ongoing health risks.

 

[voxdracanis]

re:

I know its a fine line between dirty and health issue. My concerns with the place are that it is in a condition I never would have allowed around the kids while we where married (partly why we are no longer together).

I dont want to bring in authorities if its just my twisted view of whats safe/unsafe. But......

 

[LdiJ]

I know its a fine line between dirty and health issue. My concerns with the place are that it is in a condition I never would have allowed around the kids while we where married (partly why we are no longer together).

I dont want to bring in authorities if its just my twisted view of whats safe/unsafe. But......

Then you need to give more detail. You will get better answers.

 

[voxdracanis]

re

For example I had the kids for 4 days over new years. I picked them up on a wed and brought them back sun morning. When I came over Mon morning for my 5 am shift with them. There were still plates of food on the table from the night before I had picked them up on wed. This is not normal for her but it is the kind of stuff that is concerning me.

More normal for her is to let the laundry back up till the kids bedrooms become so bad with dirty clothes that you have to kick things out of the way to get to the beds.

This is where my fine line comes in, the later is less of a problem to me and more close to dirty then the former which more of the health issue. On the one hand I can’t accept this kind of stuff with the food but on the other hand it’s not normal but it looks like it is becoming a habit.

I also have the concern of the older 2 girls who I am not the bio father of but still consider them my children. We had agreed that due to my being the only father they know and the fact that I think of them no different as my own kids that I will still get visitation with them as well. I am confusing the issue with this I know but I am sure she would use this against me in this situation.

 

[Hisbabygirl77]

Sorry that does not count as neglect from what you have posted.....sounds like she is busy raising 4 kids alone and sometimes things slack. I know there have been times when my kids room looks like a cyclone hit it and that is just one days worth of play. Maybe you can tell the kids to clean their room. How old are they? My kids starting at four were responsible for bringing their dirty clothes into our laundry room. Shoot my two year old will now if he see's a pair of dirty socks or something on the floor brings it the the laundry room. And even my two year old after dinner brings his plate into the kitchen and puts it on the counter. My older two who are 6 and 7 wipe their plates and rinse them off. Maybe you need to have a chat with the kids to help out with the simple basic things like that. No harm in kids learning chores. It is good for them. I think you are over reacting.

 

[voxdracanis]

For example I had the kids for 4 days over new years. I picked them up on a wed and brought them back sun morning. When I came over Mon morning for my 5 am shift with them. There were still plates of food on the table from the night before I had picked them up on wed. This is not normal for her but it is the kind of stuff that is concerning me.

More normal for her is to let the laundry back up till the kids bedrooms become so bad with dirty clothes that you have to kick things out of the way to get to the beds.

This is where my fine line comes in, the later is less of a problem to me and more close to dirty then the former which more of the health issue. On the one hand I can’t accept this kind of stuff with the food but on the other hand it’s not normal but it looks like it is becoming a habit.

I also have the concern of the older 2 girls who I am not the bio father of but still consider them my children. We had agreed that due to my being the only father they know and the fact that I think of them no different as my own kids that I will still get visitation with them as well. I am confusing the issue with this I know but I am sure she would use this against me in this situation.

So I guess my real question is 3 part.

1. At what point can I turn her in for neglect/abuse because of the living conditions?

2. Exactly how much documentation would I need to show a patern?

3. If there is just cause for neglect, I dont want to take my bio kids out of the home and leave the older 2 to suffer with the ex, so what legal action can be done for them.

 

[Hisbabygirl77]

What you stated is NOT a good enough reason to turn them in. Sounds to me like you want custody of all four and are going to try and use this a reason to get custody. Sorry but you have no leg to stand on.

 

[voxdracanis]

Sorry that does not count as neglect from what you have posted.....sounds like she is busy raising 4 kids alone and sometimes things slack. I know there have been times when my kids room looks like a cyclone hit it and that is just one days worth of play. Maybe you can tell the kids to clean their room. How old are they? My kids starting at four were responsible for bringing their dirty clothes into our laundry room. Shoot my two year old will now if he see's a pair of dirty socks or something on the floor brings it the the laundry room. And even my two year old after dinner brings his plate into the kitchen and puts it on the counter. My older two who are 6 and 7 wipe their plates and rinse them off. Maybe you need to have a chat with the kids to help out with the simple basic things like that. No harm in kids learning chores. It is good for them. I think you are over reacting.

I agree and even I was doing the same things at a young age. I was raised by a single mother and I can tell you that there would never be a plate or crumb of food left on the table over night let alone 5 days. Maybe I am over reacting but to me, you would have to be the laziest human being in the world to leave a plate of food out for 5 days without cleaning it.

Like I had said this in not normal for her but it is happening more often.

 

[Hisbabygirl77]

Maybe or maybe it wasn't the same plate? Or maybe she wasnt home for 5 days or whatever there could be a number of reasons. You are right I wouldnt leave a plate on the table over night but that is just me. It may not be your standard of clean but unless mold is growing on it and kids are eating off of it you are not going to stand a chance using this against her. CPS is not going to get involved over that. Was your mom a single mother of 4 young children? It gets rough sometimes I know I was Single mom of 3 for a few years. I am also a neat freak lol but even my housekeeping would slack sometimes. Not a plate on the table for 5 days but still.......... Maybe you should offer to help out? Or like I said set up a chore schedule for the kids. Also, try talking to her asking her why things are getting behind. Has she seemed depressed? Maybe her " lazy" habits are stemmed from depression. Sounds like she has a lot on her "plate" lol sorry I couldnt resist the pun.

 

[voxdracanis]

What you stated is NOT a good enough reason to turn them in. Sounds to me like you want custody of all four and are going to try and use this a reason to get custody. Sorry but you have no leg to stand on.

Well I would love to have custody of all the kids and I also would not want to take them away from the ex unless what I was concerned with was a legit legal/health issue. Thats why I posted the question.

Thank you. Thats what I need to hear.

 

[voxdracanis]

Maybe or maybe it wasn't the same plate? Or maybe she wasnt home for 5 days or whatever there could be a number of reasons. You are right I wouldnt leave a plate on the table over night but that is just me. It may not be your standard of clean but unless mold is growing on it and kids are eating off of it you are not going to stand a chance using this against her. CPS is not going to get involved over that. Was your mom a single mother of 4 young children? It gets rough sometimes I know I was Single mom of 3 for a few years. I am also a neat freak lol but even my housekeeping would slack sometimes. Not a plate on the table for 5 days but still.......... Maybe you should offer to help out? Or like I said set up a chore schedule for the kids. Also, try talking to her asking her why things are getting behind. Has she seemed depressed? Maybe her " lazy" habits are stemmed from depression. Sounds like she has a lot on her "plate" lol sorry I couldnt resist the pun.

Single mother of 3.

My ex has a long history of depression even from childhood. If you ask her she will tell you there is nothing wrong with her. It was a major problem in the relationship. This was before her 2nd job. I had tried to get her to discuss this with a doctor many times before we seperated. And she used it as an excus when we did seperate even tho her own family had tried to get her to go to a doctor. I would guess Bipolar but no one has ever got her to talk about it with a pro.