Clt747.....I agree with you 100%, but how does one prove compliance to the rule. Not to mention the cop stating he doesnt have to prove the DB level, and his opinion is good enough. I would think my purchasing a certified meter to monitor the level under the conditions stated and showing it is within the specs of the ordinace, or something to that nature would be acceptable. Why go through the trouble of creating such a specific ordinance if they wont allow a person a process of showing compliance.
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Noise Ordinance - What are my rights?
- Thread starter EbayBob
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xylene
Senior Member
Were you ACTUALLY cited, or did some blowhard cop just come over and run his mouth?
Because you would have probably won the sound case without a metered reading by the police given the specific ordinance requirements. That's why many noise ordinances use BOTH an absolute Db limit AND a subjective 'reasonableness' or 'public sensibility' criteria.
Install better soundproofing and get the Db meter. That doesn't change the reality.
Tell the police he'll just have to cite you.
Because you would have probably won the sound case without a metered reading by the police given the specific ordinance requirements. That's why many noise ordinances use BOTH an absolute Db limit AND a subjective 'reasonableness' or 'public sensibility' criteria.
Install better soundproofing and get the Db meter. That doesn't change the reality.
Tell the police he'll just have to cite you.
Didnt get cited.....I think because he probably knew we werent in actual violation, plus after I told him of my suspicion of it being the neighbor I am suing, and he validated that it indeed was them, I think he knew there was more behind it than the noise level. He just doesnt want to have to deal with it, and didn't want to get into details like db levels. But he did explain that if they keep calling he would eventually cite us, and even get a search warrant to confiscate the band equipment.
If they are going to establish such specific rules for db level, then there should be a process or procedure in place for showing compliance, and if that means I have to purchase equipment to do so, than at least that is an option, instead of the "Because I say so" police tactic.
If they are going to establish such specific rules for db level, then there should be a process or procedure in place for showing compliance, and if that means I have to purchase equipment to do so, than at least that is an option, instead of the "Because I say so" police tactic.
xylene
Senior Member
Police are allowed to lie.
Police LOVE to exaggerate their own power.
This policeman is doing what he thinks is best to keep community peace.
At the end of the day however, he can only successfully cite you if you are not in compliance.
Could he nuisance cite? Maybe, but you would win. (assuming you are right about the 90 decibels)
As for confiscating band equipment, well I hope you can see how ridiculous that sounds.
To get a search warrant you need it to be signed by a judge. (Not a signature stamp, but a real signature). That won't happen if you have your db meter on hand, calibrated, and ready to go......the next time Officer Flatfoot shows up.
Assuming the level is under 90 db, there is no basis for a citation or search warrant.
Assuming the level is under 90 db, there is no basis for a citation or search warrant.
Cedrus....I agree with your comments on how the process SHOULD work, but I have a feeling if an officer wanted to, he could obtain a warrant fairly easy......for reasons unrelated if he had to....just to cause grief, flex his muscle, etc.....just so he doesnt have to deal with the situation.
I talked further to my son about this last night, and he and the officer had additional conversations after I went in the house when this happened, and the officer seemed sympathic to the situation knowing of the lawsuit I have against the neighbor, and even told my son if he got called again, he wouldnt cite us and continue to allow us to rectify the situation, so at least at this point it appears he is cooperating.
What I would like to do, is obtain a db meter, have the officer come out so we can establish what 90db's actually sounds like under the ordinance rules, and for him to even approach the neighbors that we are allowed to play at that level, that he is aware of the legal situation/conflict, and that they too will be held accountable for false complaint calls that are more harrasment than valid. A lot of the meters record the low and high levels over a period, so I would think that is a reasonable solution, and I think appropriate that the neighbor too is held accountable.
Thanks for your comments Cedrus.
I talked further to my son about this last night, and he and the officer had additional conversations after I went in the house when this happened, and the officer seemed sympathic to the situation knowing of the lawsuit I have against the neighbor, and even told my son if he got called again, he wouldnt cite us and continue to allow us to rectify the situation, so at least at this point it appears he is cooperating.
What I would like to do, is obtain a db meter, have the officer come out so we can establish what 90db's actually sounds like under the ordinance rules, and for him to even approach the neighbors that we are allowed to play at that level, that he is aware of the legal situation/conflict, and that they too will be held accountable for false complaint calls that are more harrasment than valid. A lot of the meters record the low and high levels over a period, so I would think that is a reasonable solution, and I think appropriate that the neighbor too is held accountable.
Thanks for your comments Cedrus.
The way I read it is there's two parts to that ordinance, one being the "90 decibels", and the other being "clearly audible 40 feet or more from it's source", so you've already mentioned this neighbor complimented your kids on their music in the past, so that must mean it's clearly audible to them across the alley behind your house!
I'm not trying to be picky here, just figuring it all out. I am curious though, what went wrong with the driveway work he did for you, and why won't he correct it? Would you mind explaining that part so we can get a better look at what's causing all of this in the first place?
SnowCajun
SnowCajun.....The way the ordinance is worded, BOTH conditions have to be true, not just one. The closest propertly line to the source is 25' away....so add the 6' to that and we would need to measure less than 90db no less than 31' from the garage. That's the way I read it.
As for the lawsuit...I had just built the garage they are playing in, and hadnt yet had the driveway and sidewalks poured, and found out that this neighbor did that on the side, and was a concrete truck driver for 12 years. It was winter that I found this out, so come Spring he approached me asking if I was still interested, and he mentioned he had just lost his job(business closed shop), and would work out a great deal. So he could start right away, he drew up an initial agreement for everything but the concrete cost for the driveway since I hadnt gotten him the detailed plans at that point. What was interesting was the Payment terms he wrote on the contract...."No Payment due until project complete".
He immediately started some of the excavating work, but within a few days got a job for another concrete company. This meant he could only work weekends or evenings on it, and what was initial discussed as being a few week project was now estimated to be a few months which I was fine with. As time went buy, he did portions of the work, and asked me if I would be able to pay some money, which I was fine with..I was used to paying 1/2 down anyway, and he was my neightbor and at that time we had developed somewhat of a friendship. He did a little more work, and again asked for more money which again I was fine with....all and all I paid him 6500.00 through the process, which should have been the final amount. But he had incurred some added costs because he ended up having to hire outside help instead of buddies to help pour, and had to rent a Bobcat versus boring his buddies, etc. So he wants 900.00 more dollars, and I see us as paid in full, and to top it off....it rained when he poured the sidewalk so it is all damaged, and now that he knows I dont want to pay him the 900.00, he is refusing to replace it until I pay him in full.
So I filed a small claims case for Breach of Contract, which was to take place today, but since they counter-sued, todays events were cancelled and the court is to mail me out the new scheduled date. I obtained 3 quotes to have the sidewalk replaced, and using the middle one of $2,500.00 for my claim. The interesting thing is, even though I have an invoice from him for 900.00...he counter-sued for the same amount I did.....2,500.00. Not sure what he is thinking there, but then again, not sure what he is thinking when his contract says No Payment was due until project complete and have paid him 6500.00.
As for the lawsuit...I had just built the garage they are playing in, and hadnt yet had the driveway and sidewalks poured, and found out that this neighbor did that on the side, and was a concrete truck driver for 12 years. It was winter that I found this out, so come Spring he approached me asking if I was still interested, and he mentioned he had just lost his job(business closed shop), and would work out a great deal. So he could start right away, he drew up an initial agreement for everything but the concrete cost for the driveway since I hadnt gotten him the detailed plans at that point. What was interesting was the Payment terms he wrote on the contract...."No Payment due until project complete".
He immediately started some of the excavating work, but within a few days got a job for another concrete company. This meant he could only work weekends or evenings on it, and what was initial discussed as being a few week project was now estimated to be a few months which I was fine with. As time went buy, he did portions of the work, and asked me if I would be able to pay some money, which I was fine with..I was used to paying 1/2 down anyway, and he was my neightbor and at that time we had developed somewhat of a friendship. He did a little more work, and again asked for more money which again I was fine with....all and all I paid him 6500.00 through the process, which should have been the final amount. But he had incurred some added costs because he ended up having to hire outside help instead of buddies to help pour, and had to rent a Bobcat versus boring his buddies, etc. So he wants 900.00 more dollars, and I see us as paid in full, and to top it off....it rained when he poured the sidewalk so it is all damaged, and now that he knows I dont want to pay him the 900.00, he is refusing to replace it until I pay him in full.
So I filed a small claims case for Breach of Contract, which was to take place today, but since they counter-sued, todays events were cancelled and the court is to mail me out the new scheduled date. I obtained 3 quotes to have the sidewalk replaced, and using the middle one of $2,500.00 for my claim. The interesting thing is, even though I have an invoice from him for 900.00...he counter-sued for the same amount I did.....2,500.00. Not sure what he is thinking there, but then again, not sure what he is thinking when his contract says No Payment was due until project complete and have paid him 6500.00.
**A: you are way off. Acoustic guitars have a way lower db level than electrics.
Think of Hendrix in one room and Dylan in another. Who would you hear?
HomeGuru.....Here is the link to one of the sights regarding the Smashing Pumpkins concrete decibel level. Not that what they state is fact....but just wanted you to know my comments were not without research on the subject.
http://www.glenbrook.k12.il.us/GBSSCI/PHYS/CLASS/sound/u11l2b.html
**A: the reading must have been taken during the concert intermission.
HomeGuru.....You'll be happy to know that I just spoke with Billy Corgan of the band, and found out that apparently my neighbor also called the cops on them as well, and during the concert when this measurement was taken. So they were forced to turn their amps down to 110db, and so now we know the Rest of the Story.
Paul Harvey
Good DAY!
Paul Harvey
Good DAY!
Since my neighbor would force Hendrix to turn his Amp down to about 60db, I would probably hear them both equally, or if I was at the neighbors house, not hear them at all. But since you have them in seperate rooms, my choice would be to sit in the same room as Hendrix, so I guess I would hear him more. Wait, is this a trick question? Did Hendrix have his amp off?
I think you should consider the distance from the property line may be six feet from YOUR side of the line.
Without actually knowing what the dB level is, you are operating at your peril. Rent a meter and check the level under the worst conditions, then let the cop cite you if you feel safe. He should have to show evidence of violation.
Just my opinion...
Without actually knowing what the dB level is, you are operating at your peril. Rent a meter and check the level under the worst conditions, then let the cop cite you if you feel safe. He should have to show evidence of violation.
Just my opinion...
154NH773......Thanks for pointing that out.....after reading it again, I would say you are correct in it needing to be measured 6' in from the property line. I also concur that it needs to be measured so we all understand what 90db sounds like....including this neighbor.....who's house is at least 150' from the source. I have other neighbors as close as 50' that have never complained. Thanks for the post.
UPDATE - Jan 24, 3:15pm EST
Just thought I would pass this along. I am at work and just received a call from my son that the neighbor called the cops on them again just a few minutes ago.....its 3pm in the afternoon for God's sake. This time it was a different officer and he told my kids he didnt see anything wrong with the level he was hearing them play at when he arrived and said not to worry......whatever that means.
Not sure what he did afterwards, but he should have went over to the neighbor and told them to stop complaining. Unfortunately, I wasnt there this time to ask what he recommends we do moving forward, but this is in my mind the neighbor harrassing us. At what point is this considered to be harassment and what are my options for recourse? I'm just afraid the cops will take the course of just telling us to stop playing completely because they dont want to have to deal with it.
Just thought I would pass this along. I am at work and just received a call from my son that the neighbor called the cops on them again just a few minutes ago.....its 3pm in the afternoon for God's sake. This time it was a different officer and he told my kids he didnt see anything wrong with the level he was hearing them play at when he arrived and said not to worry......whatever that means.
Not sure what he did afterwards, but he should have went over to the neighbor and told them to stop complaining. Unfortunately, I wasnt there this time to ask what he recommends we do moving forward, but this is in my mind the neighbor harrassing us. At what point is this considered to be harassment and what are my options for recourse? I'm just afraid the cops will take the course of just telling us to stop playing completely because they dont want to have to deal with it.