OT - limits of discipline

[mistoffolees]

OT, so please ignore it if you're not interested. This one bothers me as an example of what I consider to be especially bad parenting. It really bothers me because when you read the comments on FB and elsewhere, people are praising this guy left and right.

Dad uses Facebook to teach daughter a lesson | Chicago - News - Chicago's Best Variety of the 80s, 90s and Now
(sorry, it's fairly long).

As I watched this, I could understand why the daughter grew up to be a major entitled, passive-aggressive brat. Just a few of the things that struck me:
- Both daughter and father appear to be passive-aggressive. Rather than talk about things that concern them, they hold it in and then release it in a backhanded attack way.
- Dad seems to be barely able to hold his rage in. Way inappropriate for what she did, IMHO.
- Dad loses it over stupid things. Who cares if she calls the lady who cleans their homes a 'cleaning lady'?
- Dad doesn't come across as completely honest. For example, when he's trying to show how easy the girl's life is, he lists a few chores and says that's all she has to do. As you listen further, you find that it's NOT all she has to do (for example, she has to clean the floors - which wasn't on his list of her chores) - she is clearly being asked to do more than what he claimed up front. Not that it's bad - he's entitled to ask her to do almost any chores around the house, but don't lie about it.
- Another example is the laundry. First he says that she only has to do her own laundry. Later, it comes out that she also has to do the guest room laundry. I wonder how much else she has to do. (Again, I don't have any problem with asking her to do stuff, but when he's lying about it, it makes me wonder how much else he's lying about).
- While I am fully supportive of a parent's right to control their kids' internet usage (my daughter wasn't allowed to have a FB account without an agreement that I would get her password and the account would be shut down if anything inappropriate appeared), his method is again passive-aggressive. He lets his daughter think that her account is private and then uses his 'elite hacking skills' to hack the account to find out what's going on. A decent parent wouldn't need to do that - the rules should have been made up front.
- Then the kicker is in the last couple of minutes. In my mind, the whole gun thing was WAY out of line. If he had forced her to sell the computer and use the money to pay him back - with the remainder going to charity, I wouldn't have had much objection. But blasting it to kingdom come (not once, but a full clip's worth) made me shudder. The messages that this sends are: complete disrespect for others' property, guns solve problems, if you don't like something-destroy it, "I'm more powerful so I'm in control", and (to me, the scariest one) "I'm so mad at you I'd like to shoot you, but I can't so I'll shoot your computer".

Of course, he is apparently forgetting that in less than 3 years, he's never going to have to deal with her again because she may not want to have anything to do with him - and I don't blame her.

Again, I'm not saying that a parent doesn't have the right to control what goes on in their house and I'm certainly not suggesting that kids shouldn't have to do chores. But it seems to me that this guy was WAY out of line.

What do you think?

 

[justalayman]

[

- Both daughter and father appear to be passive-aggressive. Rather than talk about things that concern them, they hold it in and then release it in a backhanded attack way.

have you read the follow up when the daughter suggested dad shoot her phone?

- Dad seems to be barely able to hold his rage in. Way inappropriate for what she did, IMHO.

yet he was not explosive. He maintained his composure.

- Dad loses it over stupid things. Who cares if she calls the lady who cleans their homes a 'cleaning lady'?

I do not believe the problem was with calling her a cleaning lady. It was that the daughter was arguing that since they have a cleaning lady, why should the daughter be required to do any cleaning

- Dad doesn't come across as completely honest. For example, when he's trying to show how easy the girl's life is, he lists a few chores and says that's all she has to do. As you listen further, you find that it's NOT all she has to do (for example, she has to clean the floors - which wasn't on his list of her chores) - she is clearly being asked to do more than what he claimed up front. Not that it's bad - he's entitled to ask her to do almost any chores around the house, but don't lie about it.

not sure it was a lie as much as he was not in a condition that he really should have been making the recording. He seemed to be a bit overwhelmed with emotion.

- Then the kicker is in the last couple of minutes. In my mind, the whole gun thing was WAY out of line. If he had forced her to sell the computer and use the money to pay him back - with the remainder going to charity, I wouldn't have had much objection. But blasting it to kingdom come (not once, but a full clip's worth) made me shudder. The messages that this sends are: complete disrespect for others' property, guns solve problems, if you don't like something-destroy it, "I'm more powerful so I'm in control", and (to me, the scariest one) "I'm so mad at you I'd like to shoot you, but I can't so I'll shoot your computer".

The point is: it was his computer. If he uses his guns regularly, I find nothing any more disconcerting than if he had destroyed the computer any other way and the point was to make a point. Selling the computer would not have the same impact.

Of course, he is apparently forgetting that in less than 3 years, he's never going to have to deal with her again because she may not want to have anything to do with him - and I don't blame her.

You need to read the follow up story.

What do you think?

I don't have a real problem with what he did other than posting it for the general public. Attempting to embarrass your child for the problems he discussed was wholly inappropriate IMO.

 

[Proserpina]

Jal, do you have a link to the follow-up story by any chance?

I'd like to read both before commenting

 

[justalayman]

Jal, do you have a link to the follow-up story by any chance?

I'd like to read both before commenting

give me a minute. I'll try to find it.

 

[tranquility]

At the Volokh Conspiracy, there was a report about what the Hawaii Supreme Court feels is appropriate corporal punishment. (I know that here we are not talking about exactly the same thing, it's just illustrative as to what the courts might feel is fine.

The Volokh Conspiracy Constitutional Right to Moderately Corporally Punish One’s Child

So held the Hawaii Supreme Court, in Hamilton ex rel. Lethem v. Lethem (Haw. Feb. 7, 2012), interpreting the Hawaii Constitution, though in reasoning that could be seen as applicable to the federal Constitution and to other state constitutions. And the court concluded that even a noncustodial parent retains this right “with respect to that child’s conduct during the visitation period.”

Based on this constitutional right, the court concluded that, to warrant the issuance of a domestic restraining order based on alleged child abuse, there must be (1) a finding that “the parent’s discipline is [not] reasonably related to the purpose of safeguarding or promoting the welfare of the minor,” (2) taking into account “factors such as [a] the nature of the misbehavior, the child’s age and size, and [c] the nature and propriety of the force used.”

 

[justalayman]

www.facebook.com/tommyjordaniii/posts/10150522677640846

In the meantime, once the initial anger passed, she sat with me reviewing some of the comments that have come in via Facebook and YouTube. One person even suggested collecting the shell casings and auctioning them on eBay. I said I’d do it if it would help contribute to her college fund! When I told her about it, she thought a minute, got a funny calculating expression on her face and said, “in that case you should shoot my phone too. We can use more bullets and I’ll go half-sies with ya on it! It’s not like I’m going to need it any time soon. And I can use the money we get to buy a new one.”

 

[Just Blue]

I actually LOVED how the father behaved. I LOL'ed. It is a variation on the GOE treatment.

 

[Proserpina]

(Thanks JAL and tranq - and misto - now I can read further )


Wrt to the GOE treatment...I'm losing faith in that, in all honesty. I'm beginning to see that it works in some extreme cases, but for regular teens/tweens? Not so much.

But that's just my personal little opinionette.



(Of course, perhaps if we raise our kids well enough before it gets to that point, it wouldn't be necessary at all.)

 

[cbg]

I haven't seen the video but I've read the news reports; the daughter's original posts and some of the father's comments. At least up to this point, I think I'm with Misto on this one.

 

[Just Blue]

(Thanks JAL and tranq - and misto - now I can read further )


Wrt to the GOE treatment...I'm losing faith in that, in all honesty. I'm beginning to see that it works in some extreme cases, but for regular teens/tweens? Not so much.

But that's just my personal little opinionette.



(Of course, perhaps if we raise our kids well enough before it gets to that point, it wouldn't be necessary at all.)

I guess I will agree to disagree. Not all well raised children behave in a well raised manner. Sometimes shooting their lap-tops is appropriate as well as making the brat pay for the bullet(s). IMPLO.

BTW: I am a fairly liberal minded parent.

 

[mistoffolees]

(Thanks JAL and tranq - and misto - now I can read further )


Wrt to the GOE treatment...I'm losing faith in that, in all honesty. I'm beginning to see that it works in some extreme cases, but for regular teens/tweens? Not so much.

But that's just my personal little opinionette.

That was another part of the thing that bothered me that I forgot to mention in my first post. Dad said she was going to be grounded for a long time (LOOOOOOOOONNNNNGGGGGG time). To me, that also speaks of bad parenting. "You are bad so I'm going to take things away from you for an indefinite period with no ground rules on what it takes to get things returned" seems like a bitter, angry reaction that reinforces 'you are bad' much more than 'you did something bad'.

If he had said "She is going to lose all electronic communication periods for a month" (or 6 months or a year or whatever), that would have struck me as a reasonable punishment. "You lose everything until I feel like giving it back to you" strikes me as vengeance.

(Of course, perhaps if we raise our kids well enough before it gets to that point, it wouldn't be necessary at all.)

Of course. Most of the time, anyway (yes, there are exceptions).

 

[mistoffolees]

You need to read the follow up story.

I read the follow up story and I don't see anything that changes my opinion. I'm glad they finally sat down and talked, but wouldn't it have been far better if they had had a few of those conversations before he went postal?

He still sounds like a garden variety passive-aggressive father. (I'm partly sensitive to it because my daughter has a friend whose father is exactly like this dad).

And I don't believe for a minute that the daughter was completely OK with the situation. I'll bet her friends would tell you a different story. She may simply have learned that Dad can be violent and is not going to be completely straight with her responses to him.

 

[Zigner]

I see absolutely nothing wrong with what was done...
He destroyed the laptop to show some finality of it. Selling it would NOT have the same effect.

Personally, I wouldn't have shot it...but that's because they send the helicopters if I fire a weapon...

 

[mistoffolees]

At the Volokh Conspiracy, there was a report about what the Hawaii Supreme Court feels is appropriate corporal punishment. (I know that here we are not talking about exactly the same thing, it's just illustrative as to what the courts might feel is fine.

The Volokh Conspiracy Constitutional Right to Moderately Corporally Punish One’s Child

Corporal punishment is legal in a lot of states. But I don't think this story is about corporal punishment at all.

In my mind, corporal punishment when applied in a calm, reasonable, fair manner is OK (I don't believe it's very effective sometimes, but that's a parent's right). If the corporal punishment is applied when the parent has gone ballistic and is just throwing punches, it's wrong. To me, that crosses the line between punishment and abuse.

That's why I brought up this story. As I stated, it felt to me like Dad crossed the line between appropriate and inappropriate behavior - and I was looking for opinions.

 

[justalayman]

mistoffolees;3005839]I read the follow up story and I don't see anything that changes my opinion. I'm glad they finally sat down and talked, but wouldn't it have been far better if they had had a few of those conversations before he went postal?

we have no idea what the total picture is here. Maybe there had been prior discussions and they were not successful and this was his next step in a progressive system. We have so little to frame this with.

And I don't believe for a minute that the daughter was completely OK with the situation. I'll bet her friends would tell you a different story. She may simply have learned that Dad can be violent and is not going to be completely straight with her responses to him.

Of course she wasn't completely ok with the situation but I believe she was ok enough to realize she screwed up big time and deserved some sort of punishment. Whether this was out of line or not is not something I cannot determine without a lot more information.