Police Confiscating My Property

[Kerri K]

What is the name of your state?

Hello. I am trying to find an honest answer to a problem that arose after I was stopped by a police officer when he noticed my tail lite was broken.

When he stopped me he asked for my drivers license and he noticed the PBA card that was in my wallet. He asked to see it and I handed it to him. He asked me were I got it and i nervously told him the truth...I got it from a friend of a friend.

He then told me he was confiscating the card and returning it to the rightful owner, which he said is the PBA named on the card. I was kind of intimidated by the change in his demeanor when he started questioning me about the card so I just ignored him and he kept the card and told me to get the lite fixed.

Now I don't want to make a big issue out of this but I'd like to know what law allows a police officer to confiscate my PBA card? I see dozens of PBA cards on sale over at ebay, so it must be legal to own one. If it was not legal to possess a PBA card why didn't he arrest me?

Quite honestly I thought the US Constitution protected me from unlawful seizures. I could be wrong so I figured I'd come here and ask.

Thanks, Kerri......

 

[CdwJava]

You gave it to him. Had you refused, there is not likely any legal compulsion to force you to give it up ... unless it is as misappropriated found property.

"Well, since it's not yours, I'll have to do a little checking to find the rightful owner. You don't mind, do you?"

What could you say? "I want to keep someone else's card?"

And if the PBA card confers benefits, it may very well belong to the PBA.

So, it's not an issue to worry about anyway.

- Carl

 

[Kerri K]

You gave it to him. Had you refused, there is not likely any legal compulsion to force you to give it up ... unless it is as misappropriated found property.

"Well, since it's not yours, I'll have to do a little checking to find the rightful owner. You don't mind, do you?"

What could you say? "I want to keep someone else's card?"

And if the PBA card confers benefits, it may very well belong to the PBA.

So, it's not an issue to worry about anyway.

- Carl

Carl, thank you for responding though I am not sure why you bothered.

The question I posed still remains unanswered. What lawful authority do the police have to seize property (PBA card) that I lawfully possess?

 

[CdwJava]

Carl, thank you for responding though I am not sure why you bothered.

The question I posed still remains unanswered. What lawful authority do the police have to seize property (PBA card) that I lawfully possess?

As I said, he likely couldn't FORCE you to hand it over. But you GAVE it to him. Since you GAVE it to him, then there's no problem. Had you refused, then he might have had to be creative or drop the whole matter.

And it IS possible that the local PBA cards are the property of the PBA.

Plus, as I said, your possession of someone else's card can be grounds to seize it while they look in to your possible misappropriation of found property.

And the reason the officer found it to be an issue is that PBA cards often confer benefits to the holder ... benefits to a retired or active peace officer. If you were neither, then you do not have the right to the card. Since you got it from a friend of the holder, then you REALLY do not have any lawful right to the card.

Legally, he could not likely seize it from you had you not given it to him. However, in reality, there are other ways that he could have legally obtained it at least long enough to locate the person named on the card to ascertain if you had a right to possess it.

It would be akin to your possessing someone else's Medicare card. There are benefits for its use, but simply being in possession of it is not criminal ... though the police would likely seize it and try to return it to the rightful owner.

Remember, it is NOT your property. You have no more right to that PBA card than you do to my PORAC membership card.

- Carl

 

[HomeGuru]

What is the name of your state?

Hello. I am trying to find an honest answer to a problem that arose after I was stopped by a police officer when he noticed my tail lite was broken.

When he stopped me he asked for my drivers license and he noticed the PBA card that was in my wallet. He asked to see it and I handed it to him. He asked me were I got it and i nervously told him the truth...I got it from a friend of a friend.

He then told me he was confiscating the card and returning it to the rightful owner, which he said is the PBA named on the card. I was kind of intimidated by the change in his demeanor when he started questioning me about the card so I just ignored him and he kept the card and told me to get the lite fixed.

Now I don't want to make a big issue out of this but I'd like to know what law allows a police officer to confiscate my PBA card? I see dozens of PBA cards on sale over at ebay, so it must be legal to own one. If it was not legal to possess a PBA card why didn't he arrest me?

Quite honestly I thought the US Constitution protected me from unlawful seizures. I could be wrong so I figured I'd come here and ask.

Thanks, Kerri......

**A: get real.

 

[Kerri K]

Carl (CdwJava) wrote: As I said, he likely couldn't FORCE you to hand it over. But you GAVE it to him. Since you GAVE it to him, then there's no problem.

I do not understand what you mean. At his request, I gave a police officer a document that I lawfully possessed. The officer did not arrest me, nor did he write me a citation for illegally possessing a PBA card…he simply took it from me and did not issue a receipt for the property he “confiscated” from a US citizen. Something smells fishy about this seizure.

Had you refused, then he might have had to be creative or drop the whole matter.

I do not understand what you mean by creative. Could you please expand on this comment?

And it IS possible that the local PBA cards are the property of the PBA.

On the front of the PBA card the officer “confiscated” from me, it was clearly marked that the card is the property of the PBA. At this time, I am not disputing the claim of PBA ownership written on the card.

I am questioning the officer’s lawful authority to “confiscate” property that I legally possess? Are police officers authorized by law to enforce the US Constitution AND the by-laws of a private organization known as the PBA?

Plus, as I said, your possession of someone else's card can be grounds to seize it while they look in to your possible misappropriation of found property.

According to an article in our local paper, in 2004 the PBA that issued the card confiscated from me printed and distributed over 70,000 non-distinct “PBA Membership Cards” to it’s 2500 uniformed members.

Regardless, the PBA card confiscated from me was not “found property.” It was property that I lawfully possessed….and in my humble opinion, it was taken from me without due process of law.

And the reason the officer found it to be an issue is that PBA cards often confer benefits to the holder ... benefits to a retired or active peace officer. If you were neither, then you do not have the right to the card. Since you got it from a friend of the holder, then you REALLY do not have any lawful right to the card.

I understand what you are saying but at the moment, the issue is, under what article of law or official governmental regulation can a police officer confiscate property that a United States citizen lawfully possesses?

Legally, he could not likely seize it from you had you not given it to him.

I am really confused. Are you saying that when I complied with the officer’s request to examine a personal document in my wallet, I forfeited my fourth amendment right to remain safe from unreasonable seizures by my government?

However, in reality, there are other ways that he could have legally obtained it at least long enough to locate the person named on the card to ascertain if you had a right to possess it.

There is no signature on my PBA card. In fact there were no distinguishing marks on it.

Remember, it is NOT your property. You have no more right to that PBA card than you do to my PORAC membership card.

I believe it is my card yet ownership is not relevant to this discussion at this moment. I would like to know what law authorizes police officers to act as enforcemnet and collection agents for a private, non-governmental organization?

Thanks…

 

[CdwJava]

I do not understand what you mean. At his request, I gave a police officer a document that I lawfully possessed.

If someone gave you stolen property, you did not lawfully possess it. Maybe the person who gave it to you did not have permission to have it - and that would make your possession unlawful.

Who knows? I don't. And apparently, neither did you.

The officer did not arrest me, nor did he write me a citation for illegally possessing a PBA card…he simply took it from me and did not issue a receipt for the property he “confiscated” from a US citizen. Something smells fishy about this seizure.

Okay. File a complaint or sue him. Your money.

I do not understand what you mean by creative. Could you please expand on this comment?

Jeez ... do I have to keep spelling it out? If he wanted to he might be able to articulate that you misappropriated found property ... or, since you admitted it wasn't yours, he could take it in an attempt to locate the lawful owner. You do not have a right to someone else's property simply because you are holding on to it.

On the front of the PBA card the officer “confiscated” from me, it was clearly marked that the card is the property of the PBA. At this time, I am not disputing the claim of PBA ownership written on the card.

Okay then. Between you and the officer, who do YOU think has a greater chance of seeing that it gets back to the rightful owner?

And since it IS the property of the PBA, he DID have a right to seize it from you. Had you refused, in my state you could have been arrested for missappropriating found property.

I am questioning the officer’s lawful authority to “confiscate” property that I legally possess?

It was NOT your property, and as such, you did NOT legally possess it.

Are police officers authorized by law to enforce the US Constitution AND the by-laws of a private organization known as the PBA?

No. But they ARE authorized to enforce the laws of their state. And your possession of someone else's property is almost certainly a violation of the law.

According to an article in our local paper, in 2004 the PBA that issued the card confiscated from me printed and distributed over 70,000 non-distinct “PBA Membership Cards” to it’s 2500 uniformed members.

Okay. That doesn't do anything to prevent it from being the property of the PBA. Though I have no idea why they'd need to issue 70,000 ... unless that's 70,000 over the life of the PBA.

Regardless, the PBA card confiscated from me was not “found property.” It was property that I lawfully possessed….and in my humble opinion, it was taken from me without due process of law.

Fine. Is it worth the cost of a lawyer for you to get it back? Then sue. It's your right.

I understand what you are saying but at the moment, the issue is, under what article of law or official governmental regulation can a police officer confiscate property that a United States citizen lawfully possesses?

And under what law can you lawfully possess property that does not belong to you? I don't know what state you are in, so I cannot cite the authority to seize the card. But I'd wager it has to do with it not being your property.

I am really confused. Are you saying that when I complied with the officer’s request to examine a personal document in my wallet, I forfeited my fourth amendment right to remain safe from unreasonable seizures by my government?

No. He asked you for the card, and you gave it to him. He didn't say you were going to jail if you refused.

There is no signature on my PBA card. In fact there were no distinguishing marks on it.

Then you probably could have lied and said that you had an uncle that was a member. You told the truth - commendable.

I believe it is my card yet ownership is not relevant to this discussion at this moment. I would like to know what law authorizes police officers to act as enforcemnet and collection agents for a private, non-governmental organization?

Ownership IS relevant. And he wasn't collecting a debt, he was retrieving property that belonged to someone else. The specific law varies by state, but we ARE allowed to seize property that belongs to another.

If someone gave you my insurance card, you do not have a lawful right to possess it unless *I* gave it to you. The person doing the giving has to be in lawful possession of the card. And my guess is that only PBA members are permitted to have the card. Had the officer not seen it, this wouldn't be an issue. And in this case, the cards are the property of the PBA, so it's really a no-brainer. Maybe if you call the PBA and say you want a card ... for whatever reason ... they'll give you one.

If you don't like it, hire an attorney and sue over a PBA card. I'm sure the court would get a huge laugh.

- Carl

 

[seniorjudge]

Q: What lawful authority do the police have to seize property (PBA card) that I lawfully possess?

A: You did not lawfully possess the card.


You don't even come close to the fourth amendment.

That requires a search and seizure.

There was neither here.

No search.

No seizure.

You gave the cop something and he kept it.

End of story.

It's exceptionally simple.

 

[You Are Guilty]

I am really confused. Are you saying that when I complied with the officer’s request to examine a personal document in my wallet, I forfeited my fourth amendment right to remain safe from unreasonable seizures by my government?

Just to clarify a bit here - the minute you voluntarily gave him the card (i.e. consented to the "search"), you waived all of your rights to contest what otherwise might have been considered an illegal search (not saying that this was one, just pointing out that you have no case because you did it voluntarily).

 

[CdwJava]

Q: What lawful authority do the police have to seize property (PBA card) that I lawfully possess?

A: You did not lawfully possess the card.


You don't even come close to the fourth amendment.

That requires a search and seizure.

There was neither here.

No search.

No seizure.

You gave the cop something and he kept it.

End of story.

It's exceptionally simple.

Well, dang it! My version was so wordy compared to yours!

Where's that coffee??! I need my coffee!

- Carl

 

[CdwJava]

Just to clarify a bit here - the minute you voluntarily gave him the card (i.e. consented to the "search"), you waived all of your rights to contest what otherwise might have been considered an illegal search (not saying that this was one, just pointing out that you have no case because you did it voluntarily).

Ditto!

Okay ... now I KNOW I have to work on my 'verbage'!

I gotta learn to be more concise ... <sigh>

- Carl

 

[Kerri K]

Seniorjudge wrote:

Q: What lawful authority do the police have to seize property (PBA card) that I lawfully possess?

A: You did not lawfully possess the card.

Hello, Judge.

If I did not lawfully possess the PBA card that was given to me by a friend of a friend, why didn’t the officer charge me with an offense? I live in NY and there is no provision in the VTL that outlaws possessing or displaying a PBA card in my wallet. Additionally, I can’t locate a law in the NYS Penal Law that proscribes possession of a PBA card.

So perhaps you could end this discussion and tell me why I did not lawfully possess the PBA card?

Thanks.

Kerri

 

[Kerri K]

In part, Carl wrote:

If someone gave you my insurance card, you do not have a lawful right to possess it unless *I* gave it to you.

Your insurance card has a name on it that can be used as an identifier when reporting it stolen. As I’ve stated several times already, my PBA card has no marks on it that would distinguish it from any other PBA card distributed that year. Therefore comments about your insurance card have absolutely no relevance to this discussion.

The person doing the giving has to be in lawful possession of the card.

I still don’t understand your point. As I said there is absolutely no way to prove my particular card is stolen because there are no unique identifying numbers or marks on it.

And my guess is that only PBA members are permitted to have the card.

I appreciate you responding to this thread but I’d like to know why you bothered if you are going to respond by writing, “my guess?”

With all due respect, I did not come here looking for guesses. As I’ve previously wrote, several times, I would like to know what lawful authority, if any, a police officer has to confiscate a PBA card that is not stolen and I lawfully posses?

Had the officer not seen it, this wouldn't be an issue. And in this case, the cards are the property of the PBA, so it's really a no-brainer.

Perhaps this is a “no-brainer” for police officers. Yet as an American citizen who is afforded rights under the fourth amendment to the US Constitution, I find it appalling that the police believe they have the lawful authority to act as arbitrators and collections agents for a private organization.

And so far, you have not presented one shred of evidence that police officers have the authority to confiscate property that I lawfully posses.

Maybe if you call the PBA and say you want a card ... for whatever reason ... they'll give you one.

Why bother? If I wanted I could go on Ebay and legally purchase a PBA card.

If you don't like it, hire an attorney and sue over a PBA card. I'm sure the court would get a huge laugh.

Perhaps you are willing to laugh at police officers who violate citizen’s rights. I am not. The police created the problem by giving PBA cards to relatives and Joe the Barber or any other person who the officer felt like giving a PBA card to. I do not believe the police have the authority to fix a problem they created by using their government authority to act as a collection agent for a private club.

The US Constitution protects me from unresonable seizures by the police…and unless the officer who confiscates my PBA card is going to charge me with a offense, I’d like to know what law he is using to seize my PBA card? Obviously you do not know the answer to that question.

I don’t mean to sound hostile but all you have done is waste my time while providing no cogent response to my original question. If you are going to continue writing “my guess is,” please do not waste anymore of my time.

Sincerely,

Kerri

 

[stealth2]

Three people - all of whom are involved in the legal system in one form or another - have given you the same answer. Who's wasting who's time? (hint - it ain't them.)

 

[CdwJava]

First off, it was not a seizure or a confiscation - you gave it to him. Second, it was not YOUR card. Third, you didn't check the NYS Penal law hard enough - I found it ... now you can go find it for yourself.

Many things can be purchased on eBay that you cannot lawfully possess in various states. So saying that you can buy it on eBay does not make it lawful to possess.

So, hire a civil rights attorney and see what you can do. You have a right to throw away your money in any way you wish.

Adios.

- Carl