Quick trademark/copyright question

[davep763]

Thanks for the well-wishes Quincy, we're ecstatic about our little peanut!

After re-reading my post, I guess I should have been a little more clear, my fault. I'm going to try and use the campaign logo for every candidate out there (it could be lack of sleep or the fact that I'm a schlub but I can't seem to figure out how to attach an image here). For example, I'd use Hillary's H with an arrow and Jeb's 'Jeb! 2016' logo. I imagine this would still fall under what you were explaining before? I would provide the logo and then the consumer could customize it to their liking, either in a positive or negative light. I don't think I need permission from the candidates to use their logo, correct?

Thanks!
Dave

 

[quincy]

Thanks for the well-wishes Quincy, we're ecstatic about our little peanut!

After re-reading my post, I guess I should have been a little more clear, my fault. I'm going to try and use the campaign logo for every candidate out there (it could be lack of sleep or the fact that I'm a schlub but I can't seem to figure out how to attach an image here). For example, I'd use Hillary's H with an arrow and Jeb's 'Jeb! 2016' logo. I imagine this would still fall under what you were explaining before? I would provide the logo and then the consumer could customize it to their liking, either in a positive or negative light. I don't think I need permission from the candidates to use their logo, correct?

Thanks!
Dave

You can still have problems with campaign logos, because these are rights-protected, as well (sometimes under copyright laws but most often under trademark laws). The specific uses of the logos need to be considered to see if there is much of a legal risk in what you wish to do.

 

[davep763]

Fair enough.

Ok, so it's not the cure for cancer but in this world of status updates, social media and instant information especially with the upcoming elections, I think it could actually turn into something cool....or I could sell 3 of them, ha!

Thus, my inquiry into campaign logos...I would simply provide the logo and the customer could use them as they see fit. I think I'll try to use them and then see what happens, it's a risk/reward thing and the reward I think is much larger than the risk.

 

[quincy]

Fair enough. ...

Thus, my inquiry into campaign logos...I would simply provide the logo and the customer could use them as they see fit. I think I'll try to use them and then see what happens, it's a risk/reward thing and the reward I think is much larger than the risk.

First, I have eliminated from my quote of your post the particulars involved with your product and you may want to remove the particulars from your post, as well. It is a really clever idea, Dave, and I think you have a winning product, but I have some concern about you revealing too much on a public forum until you are sure your product has been adequately protected from those who may want to capitalize on your idea before you get your product to market.

It can be smart to have your business personally reviewed by an IP attorney in your area, to ensure you have this protection from potential competitors and also to better assess your risks in using others' IP with your products.

Although I see some problems with your proposed use of college logos, you might not find too much opposition in your use of political logos. It will definitely be a balance of risks versus rewards - and you are ultimately the only one who can determine how much (financial) risk you are willing to take. While I think your meeting with Colorado University can help you better assess these risks, I DO recommend a personal consultation with the attorney.

Having liability insurance enough to cover any suit that arises can also be vital and is recommended.

With that said, it would be nice if you could return to let us know what CU says. Again, it is a great idea and I think you can find success with it.

 

[davep763]

Thanks for the heads up Quincy, I deleted the details. I actually have 500 products in hand at the moment and plan to hit the Flea Market in about 3 weeks but it's probably better safe than sorry. And thanks for the vote of confidence, I appreciate it! I've definitely been going back and forth as to whether this is a decent idea or not but I suppose I'll find out in a few weeks. Always nice to have a rah rah section though!

Based on your expertise I'll try to look up an IP attorney and run this by him/her. I was trying to avoid that just because of the cost but I suppose it would be a good idea. Can you advise of me of a 'fair' rate for an attorney? I'm obviously a newbie and would prefer not to get screwed over!

What problems do you anticipate with the college logos? I think I'll go ahead with the campaign logos because the potential reward is just too great.

 

[quincy]

Thanks for the heads up Quincy, I deleted the details. I actually have 500 products in hand at the moment and plan to hit the Flea Market in about 3 weeks but it's probably better safe than sorry. And thanks for the vote of confidence, I appreciate it! I've definitely been going back and forth as to whether this is a decent idea or not but I suppose I'll find out in a few weeks. Always nice to have a rah rah section though!

Based on your expertise I'll try to look up an IP attorney and run this by him/her. I was trying to avoid that just because of the cost but I suppose it would be a good idea. Can you advise of me of a 'fair' rate for an attorney? I'm obviously a newbie and would prefer not to get screwed over!

What problems do you anticipate with the college logos? I think I'll go ahead with the campaign logos because the potential reward is just too great.

Thank you for removing the details, Dave.

The amount an attorney will charge for his/her services can vary widely from location to location, and from specialty to specialty. For a good look at "fair" for your region, it can be best to call several different attorneys and then compare and contrast. You will find that patent attorneys (licensed by the USPTO to practice before it) will be on the high-end of any scale. An attorney who handles trademark and copyright actions but who is not a licensed patent attorney would probably be sufficient for your needs. You could also potentially find some free assistance through a law school in your area.

The major problem you face with your use of a college logo is if the COLLEGE finds a problem with your use of the logo. Colleges have a valuable reputation to protect and defend from all attacks on it. Politicians ... well, it is harder for a politician to claim s/he has a reputation that can be harmed.

Again, you should get a better idea of how your proposed use is likely to be received by a college when you have your meeting with CU.

I wish you good luck with your initial sales.

 

[davep763]

We have the Denver University Law School (good idea, thanks!) so I'll start there and progress to the more expensive attorneys.

Good to know about the college too, I'll keep that in mind when I have the meeting. I think I'll try to promote it as a CU vs (anyone) so it'll provide some unity university wide. Having said that, if someone doesn't like CU and buys it, that could be a problem! I'm assuming they'll request a royalty (8%?) AND a fee for the license or just one or the other? I'll let you know how it all shakes out!

I'm going to start hawking it around car washes, auto repair shops, etc... as soon as the packaging is complete.

Thanks again for your help Quincy, it's saved me a lot of time, frustration and heartache so I really appreciate it!

 

[quincy]

We have the Denver University Law School (good idea, thanks!) so I'll start there and progress to the more expensive attorneys.

Good to know about the college too, I'll keep that in mind when I have the meeting. I think I'll try to promote it as a CU vs (anyone) so it'll provide some unity university wide. Having said that, if someone doesn't like CU and buys it, that could be a problem! I'm assuming they'll request a royalty (8%?) AND a fee for the license or just one or the other? I'll let you know how it all shakes out!

I'm going to start hawking it around car washes, auto repair shops, etc... as soon as the packaging is complete.

Thanks again for your help Quincy, it's saved me a lot of time, frustration and heartache so I really appreciate it!

You're welcome, Dave. Thanks for the thanks. Good luck with it all.

 

[davep763]

A quick update..

CU bookstore really liked it and wants me to put together a CU-specific package for them. I have to see how much the actual license will cost (do you have a ballpark number? 500 or 3k?) and they want a 12% royalty. Because of the steep licensing fee they don't have a problem with me selling it to different stores in Boulder that also sell CU merchandise. That's pretty cool but now I'm concerned about how much the license will cost. Overall though it went as well as I could've hoped.

Due to some issues I haven't talked to a lawyer yet but hopefully that'll happen early next week. I'll also start hawking it at the Flea Market this Saturday or the next. I'll let you know how it goes.

Thanks!

 

[quincy]

A quick update..

CU bookstore really liked it and wants me to put together a CU-specific package for them. I have to see how much the actual license will cost (do you have a ballpark number? 500 or 3k?) and they want a 12% royalty. Because of the steep licensing fee they don't have a problem with me selling it to different stores in Boulder that also sell CU merchandise. That's pretty cool but now I'm concerned about how much the license will cost. Overall though it went as well as I could've hoped.

Due to some issues I haven't talked to a lawyer yet but hopefully that'll happen early next week. I'll also start hawking it at the Flea Market this Saturday or the next. I'll let you know how it goes.

Thanks!

I do not have a ballpark figure for you on a CU licensing fee. CU will be your best source for this information - although I believe that CU employs Collegiate Licensing Company (https://www.clc.com/Home.aspx) instead of having their own in-house department to handle licensing.

I am definitely not surprised that you have received a positive initial response to your product, davep763. You came up with a really great idea. I only worry that you have not yet spoken with an attorney in your area. I recommend seeing the attorney, not only to better ensure your product is adequately protected from potential poachers, but also to go over licensing agreements and royalties with you (the 12% could be a bit high, for example).

That said, it is always good to hear updates. I am sorry I cannot provide much advice for you this time around. I just hope you remember us on FreeAdvice when you make your first million.

 

[davep763]

Still waiting on a licensing fee since the contact is currently on vacation.

I contacted an attorney, long story short she thinks we can do a design patent for squares on a rectangle which will likely be 2 drawings. She says this will probably cost less than 2k (from what it sounds like I'm guessing around 1,500ish) and I definitely trust her. Do you have a feeling about this or are you allowed to chime in? I'm concerned about bang for the buck, how much protection will I receive for 2k?

If I do make a Colorado University specific package I feel that I should be protected in some way because that's opening it up to 30,000 captive students. Do you agree? But that's also a lot of money for licensing fee (I'm guessing around 2k?) and a design patent. It's very much a chicken and egg thing...if I knew it would take off I could afford to buy both license and design patent due to future profits. If I just sell 2 of them I'm out 4k.

I asked her similar questions and am awaiting her reply but I wanted to get a 2nd opinion, I'd like to hear your point of view if you can offer it.

Thanks!
Dave

 

[quincy]

Still waiting on a licensing fee since the contact is currently on vacation.

I contacted an attorney, long story short she thinks we can do a design patent for squares on a rectangle which will likely be 2 drawings. She says this will probably cost less than 2k (from what it sounds like I'm guessing around 1,500ish) and I definitely trust her. Do you have a feeling about this or are you allowed to chime in? I'm concerned about bang for the buck, how much protection will I receive for 2k?

If I do make a Colorado University specific package I feel that I should be protected in some way because that's opening it up to 30,000 captive students. Do you agree? But that's also a lot of money for licensing fee (I'm guessing around 2k?) and a design patent. It's very much a chicken and egg thing...if I knew it would take off I could afford to buy both license and design patent due to future profits. If I just sell 2 of them I'm out 4k.

I asked her similar questions and am awaiting her reply but I wanted to get a 2nd opinion, I'd like to hear your point of view if you can offer it.

Thanks!
Dave

A patent could be something to consider, if you have not yet marketed your product to the public. If already marketed, you would have a difficult time showing the necessary "novelty" element that qualifies your invention for a patent. And I am not convinced that your invention is innovative enough to be granted a patent. BUT ... if you trust the patent attorney you contacted, I would definitely go with her advice over any I have to offer.

What an approved patent will do is give you a monopoly on your invention, so that others cannot make, use or sell it without your authorization. In the US, it is the first to file a patent application who will be considered the patent owner.

We had a patent attorney posting to this forum for a long time and I wish he were here now, as he could provide far more information on patents than I am able to do. You might want to search out the name "divgradcurl" on this forum and send him a private message with your questions. I do not know if he responds to requests from posters any more but it would be worth a try.

I think you will sell far more than just two of your products - you have a really good idea that appears to me can be widely successful - but investing in any idea is always going to come with some risk. How much you are willing to invest (and risk) is ultimately up to you. There is never going to be a guarantee that you can recover your initial investment amounts or make any profit.

Once again, good luck, Dave.

 

[davep763]

Unfortunately not too much new to report. I do have a design patent pending and the attorney believes it has a good chance of sticking. I only spent 1k on it so I thought it was well worth it. The product was shown around the IP attorney's office and people seemed to genuinely like it. Currently, I'm filling out vendor forms for all the big autoparts stores...I know it's a complete long shot but I thought there was no harm in trying. I'm sure they want proof of concept first. I tried the local Flea Market but was rained/winded out halfway through and no luck (although no one was selling anything that day). I'll be back on a cooler day, evidently Sunday is the day to be there.

The next stop is high schools. No license fee (that I know of) and plenty of potential consumers. Then off to car washes and local auto repair shops.

I'll report back when I sell more than 5! It's a grind!

 

[quincy]

Unfortunately not too much new to report. I do have a design patent pending and the attorney believes it has a good chance of sticking. I only spent 1k on it so I thought it was well worth it. The product was shown around the IP attorney's office and people seemed to genuinely like it. Currently, I'm filling out vendor forms for all the big autoparts stores...I know it's a complete long shot but I thought there was no harm in trying. I'm sure they want proof of concept first. I tried the local Flea Market but was rained/winded out halfway through and no luck (although no one was selling anything that day). I'll be back on a cooler day, evidently Sunday is the day to be there.

The next stop is high schools. No license fee (that I know of) and plenty of potential consumers. Then off to car washes and local auto repair shops.

I'll report back when I sell more than 5! It's a grind!

Thanks for reporting back, Dave.

High schools, as a note, will generally require licensing just like colleges do. If there is money to be made with the marketing of goods or services using a trademark, the trademark holder will want some of it.

Good luck.

 

[davep763]

Quick update (actually, it's kind of becoming a log for me now) in case anyone cares...

The CU license will probably cost less than 1k. I looked at all the fees and I think it varies between 6k and $750, but since I'm so small it seems like it'll definitely be on the low end. I still have to crunch the numbers to see if it's worth it.

Haven't heard back from Pep Boys yet. Still have to send out to 3 other large auto parts stores. Not holding my breath with no sales.

I got my first order from a high school (no logos will be printed yet), the only one I've contacted so far. The principal wanted me to get some market research done during a school Halloween thing. Wasn't a huge fan so I offered to completely elminate his risk by buying back the unsold packages at the end of the school year in return for a display so the kids could play around with a sample. I figure if it does well we'll enter into a traditional buyer/supplier relationship and if it doesn't, no huge deal. This may be the best way to get into the high schools since they're afraid of spending money....I'll use it for the other high schools around Denver (unless you have a better idea?). I'm assuming I'll just draw up a quick contract stating the agreement, correct?

Safe to say that if I didn't want to hang out with my newborn so much that this would be progressing quite a bit faster but such is life, wouldn't trade it for the world!

Not much, but I gotta start somewhere!

P.S. Can I post a link here or is that not kosher? No worries if it's not.