regarding multiple moves and changes of circumstances

[angeleyzad]

What is the name of your state? Maine

Okay, another question just popped into my head on my case. Court has been set for Dec. 4th, in the AM, it's the first day for cases on the trailing docket, so I know for sure that my case will be heard. Here's my question.

My ex has moved 3 or 4 times. At the end of our divorce (almost 5 years ago) he was living approximately 115 miles from me and our boys. Then he moved a couple of times after that (without letting the courts or me know, as he's supposed to per our court order). Last September when I brought him to court for contempt of child support and residency, he gave me an address that put him at approximately 150 miles (or 175 if you took the long way). Now, he has moved again, and is using this new move as a change of circumstances for a modification. The new distance is approximately 160 miles the short way or 226 miles the long way - and he is using the long way for his justification for the change of circumstances.

I guess my question is this - would we go from the last residence that was filed with the courts (the 150-170 miles away), or with the residence from our last court order (115 miles away). The moves in between did not affect his visitation at all. This new move technically won't affect his visitation, although he's trying to be able to pick them up earlier, basically right out of school instead of the 5 pm that the judge had previously set, and he's trying to get more time in the summer from what the judge set.

My thoughts are that where he filed the address in court last September, the distance from this address to the new address is what should be used, not the distance from his original address 5 years ago to where he is living now. Also, my thoughts are that we should use the shortest distance available, not the long way around. Please tell me if I'm wrong here.

 

[CJane]

I know, from my own case, that the courts will generally use the 'commonly travelled' route to calculate distance. In my case, my ex was trying to say that I lived more than 45 miles from his house - which is true, according to mapquest. But by the route I commonly travel to his house, it's really only 32 miles. That's the route the court went with.

IMO, your ex is likely to get to pick the kids up from school, and you'll look quite petty for quibbling over a couple of hours. Ex is also likely to be able to increase summer-time visitation if what he's asking for is seen as reasonable.

 

[angeleyzad]

I know, from my own case, that the courts will generally use the 'commonly travelled' route to calculate distance. In my case, my ex was trying to say that I lived more than 45 miles from his house - which is true, according to mapquest. But by the route I commonly travel to his house, it's really only 32 miles. That's the route the court went with.

IMO, your ex is likely to get to pick the kids up from school, and you'll look quite petty for quibbling over a couple of hours. Ex is also likely to be able to increase summer-time visitation if what he's asking for is seen as reasonable.

The distances that I got were from mapquest, and his travel route is usually the shorter route, unless he is going to his family's place, which is the original address for him. However, he is using the longer route in his motion, and also using the distance between the original address of his from our divorce 5 years ago, and his new address now. I'm just not sure if because he gave another address in court last fall, if that is the address they will look at for the distance, or if they'll use his original address.

As far as the pick up from school and the summer vacation, those were set less than 3 years ago by the judge. The judge had told him that the boys needed time to get home from school, wind down, and go through their school papers, and also have a little time to see me before they left. That was the judge's reasoning for the 5 pm pick-up. With summer vacation, we already split the summer vacation, according to the judge's reasoning (the judge did not count the week school got out, or the week before school started, stating it was a wind down/wind up period for the kids). This is the same judge that will be presiding over our case in 2 weeks. I do plan on using that reasoning in court, plus the fact that if the kids were to be picked up directly from school, they would have to bring their weekend bag with them to school, which is not a place for that.

 

[CJane]

I'm just not sure if because he gave another address in court last fall, if that is the address they will look at for the distance, or if they'll use his original address.

They'll most likely take his word for the 'commonly travelled' distance between where the children are (school) and where he is (his home). Where he lived before is probably not going to be relevant. Nor is the route you think he takes.

As far as the pick up from school and the summer vacation, those were set less than 3 years ago by the judge. The judge had told him that the boys needed time to get home from school, wind down, and go through their school papers, and also have a little time to see me before they left.

But with nearly three years having elapsed since then, the judge may no longer find that necessary. And honestly? I think it's MORE disruptive for kids to go home and then go to the NCP's house than to just go there straight from school.

plus the fact that if the kids were to be picked up directly from school, they would have to bring their weekend bag with them to school, which is not a place for that.

That's REALLY not a big deal. If dad is awarded the pick up time he's requesting (and I still think he will be), ask that he be required to provide 'weekend clothing' for them.

 

[LdiJ]

The distances that I got were from mapquest, and his travel route is usually the shorter route, unless he is going to his family's place, which is the original address for him. However, he is using the longer route in his motion, and also using the distance between the original address of his from our divorce 5 years ago, and his new address now. I'm just not sure if because he gave another address in court last fall, if that is the address they will look at for the distance, or if they'll use his original address.

As far as the pick up from school and the summer vacation, those were set less than 3 years ago by the judge. The judge had told him that the boys needed time to get home from school, wind down, and go through their school papers, and also have a little time to see me before they left. That was the judge's reasoning for the 5 pm pick-up. With summer vacation, we already split the summer vacation, according to the judge's reasoning (the judge did not count the week school got out, or the week before school started, stating it was a wind down/wind up period for the kids). This is the same judge that will be presiding over our case in 2 weeks. I do plan on using that reasoning in court, plus the fact that if the kids were to be picked up directly from school, they would have to bring their weekend bag with them to school, which is not a place for that.

I think that you are probably over worrying about the distance. By all means put together proof of the actual distance, and the difference between the short way and the long way, but otherwise its probably not going to make a huge difference.

 

[angeleyzad]

I think that you are probably over worrying about the distance. By all means put together proof of the actual distance, and the difference between the short way and the long way, but otherwise its probably not going to make a huge difference.

That's the thing , though...there is a big difference. It is also the basis of his request for modification. The original distance between us at the end of our divorce was 115 miles (long way, short way, was just about the same distance). Last September, when we went to court, his address that he supplied the court and me put him at 170 miles the long way, and 150 miles the short way. This new move he made puts him at 226 miles the long way, and 159 miles the short way. He is using this 226 mile difference between us as his major change of circumstances, which is what he needs to be able to modify. However, with his last residence with the court, and the new residence, if you use the short way, there is only a 9 mile difference, which is not enough to warrant a change of circumstances. Now, if he uses the long distance of 226 miles, and his original address at 115 miles, that would give him the difference for the change of circumstances.

Now, if he is asking for all the summer (which, basically, if he does get more time, that's what would happen, I would only end up with 1 or 2 weeks), would it be reasonable for me to request a full long-distance schedule, such as no longer every other weekend, but maybe 1 weekend a month? Isn't that usually what happens with a long distance schedule? Isn't that usually the justification for the NCP getting the majority of the summer vacation, because they don't get as much time month to month?

I'm just making sure that I understand all the scenarios. Thanks for all your help.

 

[angeleyzad]

another way

Let me put the residency/travel distance in another way.

5 years ago lived at "A"
1 year ago lived at "B"
6 months ago lived at "C"

Should we be using the difference between the distances of the "A" address and my house(the kids), and the new distance between the "C" address and my house, or should the difference between the distances be from the last residence, "B", and the new residence, "C".

As the last residence given to court, "B", before the new move, shouldn't that be the basis for the difference in distance, not the "A" residence?

As far as the difference in mileage between the different routes, wouldn't a change in location negate a change in travel routes, or should we be basically going back to the "A" residence, and then coming up to where the kids are? Because that is basically what is happening. The "A" residence is due south from the kids, the "B" residence was North-West of that residence, and the "C" residence is West of the "B" residence. It does not seem practicable for the travel route to go South-East, then North, rather than just going North-East.

I'm not trying to fight about any of this with you guys, you really help me to understand my positions and what is logical for me to ask for and fight for. I just want to say thank you again.

 

[CJane]

Let me put the residency/travel distance in another way.

5 years ago lived at "A"
1 year ago lived at "B"
6 months ago lived at "C"

Should we be using the difference between the distances of the "A" address and my house(the kids), and the new distance between the "C" address and my house, or should the difference between the distances be from the last residence, "B", and the new residence, "C".

Again, I think the court is likely to 'toss out' residence A and B and simply go with total mileage between your residence/the children's school and his current residence. The 'change of circumstances' would apply in either scenario.

My ex still lives in our marital residence. When I moved out post-divorce, I moved to a town about 16 miles south of him. Just over a year later, I moved about 30 miles straight East of him. The court did not say "Well, it's only 16 miles further", but "It's a total of 32 miles". See what I'm saying?

As far as the difference in mileage between the different routes, wouldn't a change in location negate a change in travel routes, or should we be basically going back to the "A" residence, and then coming up to where the kids are? Because that is basically what is happening. The "A" residence is due south from the kids, the "B" residence was North-West of that residence, and the "C" residence is West of the "B" residence. It does not seem practicable for the travel route to go South-East, then North, rather than just going North-East.

Huh?

 

[LdiJ]

Let me put the residency/travel distance in another way.

5 years ago lived at "A"
1 year ago lived at "B"
6 months ago lived at "C"

Should we be using the difference between the distances of the "A" address and my house(the kids), and the new distance between the "C" address and my house, or should the difference between the distances be from the last residence, "B", and the new residence, "C".

As the last residence given to court, "B", before the new move, shouldn't that be the basis for the difference in distance, not the "A" residence?

As far as the difference in mileage between the different routes, wouldn't a change in location negate a change in travel routes, or should we be basically going back to the "A" residence, and then coming up to where the kids are? Because that is basically what is happening. The "A" residence is due south from the kids, the "B" residence was North-West of that residence, and the "C" residence is West of the "B" residence. It does not seem practicable for the travel route to go South-East, then North, rather than just going North-East.

I'm not trying to fight about any of this with you guys, you really help me to understand my positions and what is logical for me to ask for and fight for. I just want to say thank you again.

Ok...dad is obviously still exercising every other weekend. Therefore that negates his "change of circumstance" to a great extent. That may be enough to convince the judge that picking the child up at school is more appropriate (so they won't get to his house as late), however it should not be enough to change the summer schedule.

There is no "change of cirumstance" in that respect, because his is still obviously willing and able to exercise every other weekend....therefore there is no "change". Plus, dad is the one who created the extra distance, because he is the one who chose to move further away. Your child deserves some summer time with both parents. Since dad's move didn't change anything in the regular schedule, there is no basis for additional summer time.

However, by all means spell out dad's moves and the real distance. By all means prove that the 226 miles is the "long way". Take a map with you to court so that you can prove it.

However, I am really curious how its possible that the "short way" and the "long way" (in Maine) can be different by almost 70 miles...

 

[CJane]

Therefore that negates his "change of circumstance" to a great extent. That may be enough to convince the judge that picking the child up at school is more appropriate (so they won't get to his house as late), however it should not be enough to change the summer schedule.

If I recall correctly, dad was also citing the children's ages/time since the original order was put into effect as a change of circ in his original motion. That is still completely valid.

 

[LdiJ]

If I recall correctly, dad was also citing the children's ages/time since the original order was put into effect as a change of circ in his original motion. That is still completely valid.

I went back and re-read the thread and I don't see where you get that?? However I agree that dad may have grounds/change of circumstance to convince a judge that he should be able to pick the kids up from school for his eow.

Its the change in the summer schedule that I don't believe will fly as a "change in circumstance", since he is still exercising every other weekend. There is no "change". There is nothing that makes the summer schedule anything different from the last 5 years.

Now, if he didn't already have half the summer my opinion would be different...but he does.

 

[angeleyzad]

to answer your questions...

to answer your questions, the summer schedule has been set the way it is for the past 3 years - in our original divorce decree/parenting schedule, there was no summer schedule spelled out (he never asked for one). We had gone back to court immediately afterwards, because he was fired from his job and moved from Maine (42 miles from me) to New Hampshire (115 miles from me). That was the change of circumstances that allowed him to put in the ammendment. He dragged that process out for almost 2 years, after which he was given by the judge 6 weeks (3x2 week blocks) for summer vacation before the kids started school, and after they started school (which was that next year), he went to 4 weeks (2x2 week blocks). He has had the 4 weeks in summer since the kids were in school. We alternate holidays already, so our summer schedule has always rotated around who has the July 4 holiday. Also, the way that school ends, sometimes it lasts until the 3rd week of June, depending on the number of snow days. Essentially, he already has half the summer.

Dad did not site anything about the boys' ages in his motion, essentially the only time that would come into effect is when the boys reach 12 or older, for child support, and maybe visitation issues surrounding extra curricular activities.

The main reason for Dad filing this motion was because "the travel distance is impracticable with the current contact schedule" as it reads on his motion. He is also trying to get child support reduced, saying that he makes less, but I can prove that he actually makes more. I make more as well, so we will probably still adjust child support.

The last court order that we had put Dad at a distance of 115-120 miles from me. The last time we went to court (it was for a contempt filed by me), he gave an address that was 150 miles or 170 miles, depending which way you took. (going from western NH, over to the coast, then up the Maine TP put the milage at 170, if you went from western NH, straight up to Maine by way of North Conway, it's 150 miles). He never filed to modify because of that traveling. Now, the new location, if he goes the same way, from eastern VT, up to North Conway, then into Maine, it's about 160 miles to me. If he uses his original route, going east through NH to the coast, then up the turnpike, it's 226 miles...so there is a big difference with the different routes. It would make sence to me that where he has relocated, a quicker route should be taken. Besides, the boys have said to me that they drive through the mountains to get to Dad's new house, not down the turnpike. The shorter route also has no tolls, where the longer route does.

I guess my original question hasn't really been answered, or if it was, I missed that...Should the difference of the distance between us (for his change of circumstances) be measured from his first residence, or his last residence? The first residence has a difference of 45 miles ( or 106 miles, the long way), the second residence has a difference of 10 miles (or 56 miles the long way). It would be different if he had filed to change his visitation at the last residence, but he did not. I can see from what you said, CJAne, that yes, there is a distance between us of 160 miles. But, post divorce, there was already a distance between us of 115 miles, then at another court date, a distance of 150 miles. So, in actuality, from the last court date, he has not put that much more distance between us (10 miles difference, which would be moving from one side of town to the other - and that wouldn't be enough to change the schedule if we were in the same town).

 

[angeleyzad]

about pick up from school

About the pick up from school, I guess I'm just against that, for the reasons that the judge had not allowed that previously. I need to be able to take care of any of their school papers that they bring home on Friday, and they need to be able to get their stuff ready. It's also not a good idea for them to be bringing their weekend clothes with them to school on Fridays. These were all the reasons that the judge had set, when he was still living quite a distance from me. Also, I would say that 95% of the time, on Friday nights, they go to his parent's house, which was his original residence from after the divorce (the 115 miles distance). So, the time they get to their location is still the same as it always was. If they go anywhere after that, that should not concern me.

AS far as an arguement that "Dad can just as easily take care of the school things" - Dad has not been involved in the boys schooling at all - I will give him things, but he does nothing. The only times that he has involved himself, is when we have to go back to court. I cannot guarantee that anything they bring home on the Fridays that they would go with Dad would even make it to my home. There's also the problem that they forget something almost every weekend that they're with Dad - and if it's something to do with school, that would not be good - as it usually takes Dad a full week or longer to get it back to me.

 

[stealth2]

There's also the problem that they forget something almost every weekend that they're with Dad - and if it's something to do with school, that would not be good - as it usually takes Dad a full week or longer to get it back to me.

So you teach them that it's THEIR responsibility to make sure they have all of their stuff - including school stuff - when they return from Dad's. And if THEY do not remember, it is THEY who suffer the consequences. I've had this rule with mine since they started school - if it's supposed to come home, it's their job to get it here. Whether they're coming from school, Dad's, Grandma's, a friend's, etc. I don't run up to the school, I don't expect Dad to mail things back, etc. I also don't buy the whole clothes thing. Packing a pair of pants, underwear x 2, socks x 2, shirt at the bottom of the backpack isn't a big deal. That really is all they need.

 

[angeleyzad]

So you teach them that it's THEIR responsibility to make sure they have all of their stuff - including school stuff - when they return from Dad's. And if THEY do not remember, it is THEY who suffer the consequences. I've had this rule with mine since they started school - if it's supposed to come home, it's their job to get it here. Whether they're coming from school, Dad's, Grandma's, a friend's, etc. I don't run up to the school, I don't expect Dad to mail things back, etc. I also don't buy the whole clothes thing. Packing a pair of pants, underwear x 2, socks x 2, shirt at the bottom of the backpack isn't a big deal. That really is all they need.

I try to get my kids to remember their own things...sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. Everything is always fun and games with Dad, so they forget things all the time, and Dad doesn't remember them, either. Even at home they forget things. As far as clothing goes, I send 2 full sets of clothing, and even this isn't "enough" for Dad - he expects 3 full sets of clothing for his weekends...There is always a full backpack with the boys' clothes, so yes, with everything else they have for school (not much for the kindergartner, but the 2nd grader has more in his bag for his class), it would be a lot. The backpack that is packed for their weekend is a full size backpack. Their school backpacks aren't that big.