religion

[gr8rn]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? PA

The father and I have been divorced for several months. He refused to allow me to baptize our son during the marriage. Before we were married (in Las Vegas) he told me he was Catholic. I did not find out otherwise until after the marriage when his parents told me he was Lutheran. He doesn't even know what that means. He was baptized in a Lutheran Church and never set foot in a Lutheran Church again. I am a practicing Catholic. My second marriage (to this man) was never recognized by my church so I am still able to receive sacraments and go to church regularly. During the 5 years we were married he did not allow me to attend church or bring my son there. And of course, I was never able to baptize him although I talked to him about it several times after we separated and at one point when we were alone he agreed to let me baptize him.
Since we divorced he denies he ever told me I could baptize our son but I have been attending church regularly with our son for the last 2 years and have taught my son what I know about our religion and have started taking him to religious education through the church where I am registered. He is 6 and next year will be able to receive holy communion, but I need to get him baptized and have gone ahead and made plans. My decision is based on the fact that the father never chose a religion and has not participated in any church affiliations. Since he has made the choice not to do so, I believe I am within my rights to have my son become a full member of my church and he will be baptized in my church next month. The father is not invited and will not be informed until after the fact.
My problem however is since the father has visitation every other weekend, my son misses church on those weekends even though it is written in the custody agreement that the father is to take him to church when he is with him. when I recently told him this, he said we never talked about it and to call him and we would discuss it. he called me a few minutes later and just started yelling at me that I never told him my plans and I am in the wrong to take him to my church. at one point he said he would take him to his church and after I questioned him what church he backed off and said he would not do so at all.
Just because he has chosen to live a soullless Godless life without practicing any relligion does not mean he can choose the same for my son. My son has a good understanding about God, Jesus, heaven and hell and what being a good Christian means. He is happy about going to church and is looking forward to being baptized into the church. He said to our christian counseler that it means he will be "closer to God"
If I take him to court, could I force him to take my son to church? I would not mind if he took my son to a Lutheran church as long as he takes him. Could he lose custody on Sundays if I take him to court to modify the custody agreement since he is in contempt>

 

[TheGeekess]

Do you have joint legal custody? If so, I don't think either of you can make a decision about religion without agreeing. Judges will not make an order forcing someone to take a child to church.

 

[gr8rn]

I have physical custody and it is called shared custody. It states in the agreement that we willl "share in making of major decisions affecting the best interest of the minor including but not limited to medical, religious and educational decisions." and it also states "the party who has physical custody of the minor must exercise the daily parental responsibilities. However, unless ordered, both parties should consult with one another on major decisions affecting the minors life such as education, religious training, and major medical treatment."

But it also states, "when exercising parital custody or visitation rights with the minor , the parent must make sure the minor continuse to attend school, church, and other activities considered beneficial to their overall growth and development."

As I said before, we talked about this while separated and I insisted I wanted our son baptized, as I did during the marriage and as soon as I made plans and let him in on the plans, he started to scream and yell that he did not want his son baptized, period.

Just because he chooses to live a life without religion, does not mean I need to go along with it for my son. That is not in his best interest.

I think I need to explain the type of person I am dealing with. This is a person who was jealous of my breastfeeding my son. Not for the ususal reason that fathers get jealous. He stated clearly that he did not want me to breastfeed, because he himself could not breastfeed so he did not want me to have a "different" relationship with our son. (?)
He would come up from behind when I was nursing my infant son and take a couch cushion and try to knock my head off my neck because of his jealousy. If you know anything about breastfeeding, the mother and child must be very calm in order for it to work. I had to stop after my son was 8 weeks old because my neck could not take any more assaults from behind. I have ringing in my ears from him screaming into them, he spit in my face and my son's face since he was a toddler. He set my son up at the age of 3, to find a porn magazine so he could proudly tell me he "caught" our 3 year old son "reading porn" (?) This same person, when my son was 4, pushed my son's head into the toilet and got his face wet, because my son got pee on the seat and refused to clean it off. (I got my 3rd protection from abuse order after that incident and filed for divorce and custody immediately) This was a year after we separated, and during that time he kept trying to pressure me into continuing a sexual relationship with him which I refused every time. Before the toilet incident he watched my son every day when I was at work, but after that I put my son in daycare and got a job working from home this year so my son does not go to day care anymore. this same person threatened to blow up my car with me and my unborn son in it when I was pregnant, that was my first PFA. During my pregnancy after I had him jailed for the terroristic threats, he informed me that he had a problem with crack, he had had a 10 year incestuous relationship with his sister before he was kicked out of his home at 18, he had stolen money from me during the first year of our marriage to finance his crack addiction which bankrupted me, and he had 2 sexually transmitted diseases (the latter he told me about when I was 36 weeks pregnant. Isn't that something he should have told me about BEFORE I got pregnant?

I hope this gives a clearer picture of what I am dealing with. The fact that he chooses no religion does not mean I have to respect his position and NOT give my son the religious education and sacraments, just because he is not in CONTROL.

 

[TheGeekess]

I have physical custody and it is called shared custody. It states in the agreement that we willl "share in making of major decisions affecting the best interest of the minor including but not limited to medical, religious and educational decisions." and it also states "the party who has physical custody of the minor must exercise the daily parental responsibilities. However, unless ordered, both parties should consult with one another on major decisions affecting the minors life such as education, religious training, and major medical treatment."

But it also states, "when exercising parital custody or visitation rights with the minor , the parent must make sure the minor continuse to attend school, church, and other activities considered beneficial to their overall growth and development."

As I said before, we talked about this while separated and I insisted I wanted our son baptized, as I did during the marriage and as soon as I made plans and let him in on the plans, he started to scream and yell that he did not want his son baptized, period.

Just because he chooses to live a life without religion, does not mean I need to go along with it for my son. That is not in his best interest.

<snip, snap, snup>

I hope this gives a clearer picture of what I am dealing with. The fact that he chooses no religion does not mean I have to respect his position and NOT give my son the religious education and sacraments, just because he is not in CONTROL.

Yes, you do have to respect his opinion. You are court ordered to respect his opinion, and if you don't and carry on with your plan, you can be held in contempt of court. Do that enough, and you'll lose custody. As far as 'religion', if Dad wants to take Junior to a Wiccan ceremony, well, that is a church.

And I know of many children that do well without being raised in a particular religion, thank you very much; so much for your best interest argument.

 

[Ohiogal]

According to your order you have to consult with dad about having junior baptised and have to inform him of when the baptism is scheduled. You don't get to unilaterally decide.

Whether it is actually enforceable is a different story. Did you folks AGREE with the order? Or did the court just order it?

 

[gr8rn]

It is signed by both of us. So, yeah, we both agreed. I did state that when separated, I did tell him I wanted our son baptized and he agreed. It is just that every time I made plans to do it (he never plans anything) he would flip out and say no. I went to my church, a non denominational church, and a Lutheran church and made plans, each time foiled by a bum on a power trip. Each phase of his anger at my making plans, coincidentally was in sync with his cocaine binges. This was during the marriage. He even asked his sister to be godmother (the one he had sex with) so there was definitely an agreement that my son would be baptized,it is just that I was dealing with a very unstable person who did not like me to have any control at all over our son. He wanted all the control and his drug and alcohol addled brain did not allow for any rational thought. I would say ok you make the plans and nothing would be done for months. Then I would make a plan and he would nix it because he didn't want to be in front of "people" due to his drug induced paranoia. It was a nightmare.

 

[peppier]

I'm pretty sure it isn't legally permissible, but the age of reason for choosing Baptism, 1st Communion and Confession for oneself, in the Catholic Church is 7, your son could choose it on his own. I think the best thing you could do is talk to your priest or a deacon. They could probably talk to your son and make him feel alright waiting for 1st Communion. I know how important it is to your faith but is it worth putting more tension into an already tense situation. You can teach him to make a spiritual communion and most priests will allow you to come up for a blessing.

I knew a woman with 5 children, she was still married but she secretly had all 5 of them baptized in the Catholic Church. She eventually got divorced but her subterfuge didn't really do anything for the children's religious formation, keeping a secret like that only hurt everyone. Only one of her children has remained Catholic.

 

[Ohiogal]

I'm pretty sure it isn't legally permissible, but the age of reason for choosing Baptism, 1st Communion and Confession for oneself, in the Catholic Church is 7, your son could choose it on his own. I think the best thing you could do is talk to your priest or a deacon. They could probably talk to your son and make him feel alright waiting for 1st Communion. I know how important it is to your faith but is it worth putting more tension into an already tense situation. You can teach him to make a spiritual communion and most priests will allow you to come up for a blessing.

I knew a woman with 5 children, she was still married but she secretly had all 5 of them baptized in the Catholic Church. She eventually got divorced but her subterfuge didn't really do anything for the children's religious formation, keeping a secret like that only hurt everyone. Only one of her children has remained Catholic.

Lying about a religious sacrament is not keeping with the tenets of the religion. I don't see a man of God going along with her idea.

Because she agreed, a court may find her in contempt and judge her more harshly than if it was an order. She cannot unilaterally decide upon this because she AGREED not to.

 

[LdiJ]

Lying about a religious sacrament is not keeping with the tenets of the religion. I don't see a man of God going along with her idea.

Because she agreed, a court may find her in contempt and judge her more harshly than if it was an order. She cannot unilaterally decide upon this because she AGREED not to.

I agree. She is totally free to take the child to church, but without dad's agreement any baptism would have to wait until the child is a legal adult.

I know that's more problematic in the Catholic church, so if its important to you, this is something that you may want to take back to court, to get the judge's permission for the baptism.

I am confused however as to why you agreed to shared parenting if dad's problems are as severe as you have described.

 

[gr8rn]

I made a mistake coming here to a legal forum. They say justice is blind and I already knew that dealing with an abuser in court. My bad. The system works to keep domestic violence issues out of the court. The judge who heard my emergency custody hearing is good friends the my abusers attorney and despite pictures of bruises and scratches on his face said, "i am not convinced your son is being abused. This could be discipline"

I pour my heart out to a bunch of legal wannabes and this is what I get. You can reply if you want but I will not be back to read it. I should have known better.

 

[CourtClerk]

I made a mistake coming here to a legal forum.

Bye bye...

Make sure the next time you just want to hear what you want to hear, then do one of two things:

1. Tell us what you want to hear and we'll post it back to you verbatim

2. Find an emotional support website. Drphil.com or something of the sorts. They'll feel sorry for you, tell you he has no rights to his child and anything else you want to hear. It won't be legally accurate, but it WILL make you feel better.

Oh, some of us aren't legal wannabees. Some of us do this for a living. In fact, you were answered by at least one family law attorney.

Ingrate. It's not very Christian of you, so maybe you need some "Christian education" yourself.

 

[Ohiogal]

I agree. She is totally free to take the child to church, but without dad's agreement any baptism would have to wait until the child is a legal adult.

I know that's more problematic in the Catholic church, so if its important to you, this is something that you may want to take back to court, to get the judge's permission for the baptism.

I am confused however as to why you agreed to shared parenting if dad's problems are as severe as you have described.

That is due to the fact that she AGREED to this order. It may not be enforceable due to the First Amendment (the issue with another poster as well) however this is NOT the court choosing the religion or deciding between religions -- this was the parents deciding. If the Court ordered this however it could be problematic.

I agree that she may want to return to Court if this is problematic. But she may run into issues with that as well.

 

[thedoctorisin]

gr8rn,

If you haven't been driven away by the treatment that you've received here, then private message (PM) me for some advice on your situation.

thedoctorisin

 

[Ohiogal]

gr8rn,

If you haven't been driven away by the treatment that you've received here, then private message (PM) me for some advice on your situation.

thedoctorisin

The treatment she received? OH, the truth.

 

[thedoctorisin]

The treatment she received? OH, the truth.

I guess that makes it okay, then.

In any event, I don't see why everyone who was so quick to bash the OP over the head with the truth that she can't unilaterally decide to baptize their child seems to have no problem with the father unilaterally imposing his choice for the (lack of) religious upbringing for their child.

It seems to me that the appropriate section of the court order is the part that deals with the situation where the parents cannot come to an agreement on major decisions regarding the child.