HighwayMan
Super Secret Senior Member
Seems like Dillon is now posting under a different name.
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resolved: a driver's license is for commercial use, so is registration
- Thread starter illegalbeagle
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CdwJava
Senior Member
He didn't like his old one? Heck, I think they were both on a thread not long ago ... sort of when Dillon stopped contributing on it.
illegalbeagle
Member
i cant edit or quote anyone either, so bear with me...
@ a bunch of posters- try to distinguish between the local requirements for cabbies and such, and the impositions of the state vehicle code. im talking about the difference between "driving w/o a license" and being exempt.
even where the state, and most do not, requires a special taxi DL the regular license is still otherwise valid for many commercial activities. the odd thing is that generally, we are to assume that somehow what amounts to an occupational permit is required just to get behind the wheel of an automobile on the public highway, but that in most cases no further state license is needed to engage with the public. how odd... so i need a license to drink beer but not to sell beer on the street... just so long as i have my license to drink. unless im selling federal beer then i dont need any license...not likely.
@ Carl the NorCal cop supervisor: every state including CA exempts federal employees on federal business from state licensing requirements. i figure you know this so im not going to google and post the exact cite. we all see those postal vehicles tooling around w/ no plates. if i was convicted of an atrocious vehicular crime and barred from operating privileges for life, could i still operate a post office truck by state law? that should tell you something. and i am not Dillon, i just joined this site a day or so back. But I do recognize you, from your several years of efforts on similar legal webforums. once, you told me there was a special law in california that allowed you to make me wear a kangaroo suit and be tried by the side of the road... giving new meaning to the term, "kangaroo court". let's see if i can drive you to such distraction again here- see im funny too.
but there is no case law contradicting my position here, and you cant show it. this question never gets that far because the charges, in my experience, get dropped first. why can people from anywhere in the world come to california and drive WITHOUT any license at all? if you cant check it, it doesnt exist. a piece of paper or plastic is not a window into another world. yet we have the 'international convention on road traffic'. an IDP is not a substitute nor analog to any license. it is a private issue certificate of linguistic translation. its the equivalent of pinning a note with name and home address to a young child's shirt, so you can read it if he gets lost.
california lets "unlicensed drivers" operate for 30 days 'if they come from a country or state that does not require licenses'... its in the code. there is no such thing as "coming from a country that" and you cant make any determinations... so its a meaningless qualification to the fact that people are going to be driving around without licenses, and its legal. not in the system not in the compact and yes its legal.
@ Sloop John D: persons on federal business are altogether exempt. so im deducting that the other end of the spectrum being no business at all, is also exempt. now i will post the cite, using CA as the example-
12501. The following persons are not required to obtain a driver's
license:
(a) An officer or employee of the United States, while operating a
motor vehicle owned or controlled by the United States on the
business of the United States, except when the motor vehicle being
operated is a commercial motor vehicle, as defined in Section 15210.
Colorado let the cat out of the bag-
Colorado Statutes
Title 24. GOVERNMENT - STATE
INTERSTATE COMPACTS AND AGREEMENTS
Article 60. Interstate Compacts and Agreements
Part 11. DRIVER LICENSE COMPACT
Current through 2011 Legislative Session
� 24-60-1106. Operator's license under compact
The provisions of sections 42-1-102(81), 42-2-101(1), and 42-2-102(1) (d) and (1) (e), C.R.S., requiring residents of other states to secure an operator's license from this state shall not apply to persons licensed to drive by other states party to the driver license compact. This state shall require a resident to secure an operator's license from the department of revenue and to surrender any outstanding license to drive issued by another state; except that, if the laws of such other state require the person to be licensed to drive thereby in order to engage in such person's regular trade or profession, no license shall be issued by this state so long as such other license to drive is in force, nor shall this state issue any license to drive in contravention of the driver license compact.
History. Source: L. 65: p. 800, � 6. C.R.S. 1963: � 74-12-6. L. 94: Entire section amended, p. 2557, � 57, effective January 1, 1995.
@ a bunch of posters- try to distinguish between the local requirements for cabbies and such, and the impositions of the state vehicle code. im talking about the difference between "driving w/o a license" and being exempt.
even where the state, and most do not, requires a special taxi DL the regular license is still otherwise valid for many commercial activities. the odd thing is that generally, we are to assume that somehow what amounts to an occupational permit is required just to get behind the wheel of an automobile on the public highway, but that in most cases no further state license is needed to engage with the public. how odd... so i need a license to drink beer but not to sell beer on the street... just so long as i have my license to drink. unless im selling federal beer then i dont need any license...not likely.
@ Carl the NorCal cop supervisor: every state including CA exempts federal employees on federal business from state licensing requirements. i figure you know this so im not going to google and post the exact cite. we all see those postal vehicles tooling around w/ no plates. if i was convicted of an atrocious vehicular crime and barred from operating privileges for life, could i still operate a post office truck by state law? that should tell you something. and i am not Dillon, i just joined this site a day or so back. But I do recognize you, from your several years of efforts on similar legal webforums. once, you told me there was a special law in california that allowed you to make me wear a kangaroo suit and be tried by the side of the road... giving new meaning to the term, "kangaroo court". let's see if i can drive you to such distraction again here- see im funny too.
but there is no case law contradicting my position here, and you cant show it. this question never gets that far because the charges, in my experience, get dropped first. why can people from anywhere in the world come to california and drive WITHOUT any license at all? if you cant check it, it doesnt exist. a piece of paper or plastic is not a window into another world. yet we have the 'international convention on road traffic'. an IDP is not a substitute nor analog to any license. it is a private issue certificate of linguistic translation. its the equivalent of pinning a note with name and home address to a young child's shirt, so you can read it if he gets lost.
california lets "unlicensed drivers" operate for 30 days 'if they come from a country or state that does not require licenses'... its in the code. there is no such thing as "coming from a country that" and you cant make any determinations... so its a meaningless qualification to the fact that people are going to be driving around without licenses, and its legal. not in the system not in the compact and yes its legal.
@ Sloop John D: persons on federal business are altogether exempt. so im deducting that the other end of the spectrum being no business at all, is also exempt. now i will post the cite, using CA as the example-
12501. The following persons are not required to obtain a driver's
license:
(a) An officer or employee of the United States, while operating a
motor vehicle owned or controlled by the United States on the
business of the United States, except when the motor vehicle being
operated is a commercial motor vehicle, as defined in Section 15210.
Colorado let the cat out of the bag-
Colorado Statutes
Title 24. GOVERNMENT - STATE
INTERSTATE COMPACTS AND AGREEMENTS
Article 60. Interstate Compacts and Agreements
Part 11. DRIVER LICENSE COMPACT
Current through 2011 Legislative Session
� 24-60-1106. Operator's license under compact
The provisions of sections 42-1-102(81), 42-2-101(1), and 42-2-102(1) (d) and (1) (e), C.R.S., requiring residents of other states to secure an operator's license from this state shall not apply to persons licensed to drive by other states party to the driver license compact. This state shall require a resident to secure an operator's license from the department of revenue and to surrender any outstanding license to drive issued by another state; except that, if the laws of such other state require the person to be licensed to drive thereby in order to engage in such person's regular trade or profession, no license shall be issued by this state so long as such other license to drive is in force, nor shall this state issue any license to drive in contravention of the driver license compact.
History. Source: L. 65: p. 800, � 6. C.R.S. 1963: � 74-12-6. L. 94: Entire section amended, p. 2557, � 57, effective January 1, 1995.
illegalbeagle
Member
here's the follow-up:
there is no vehicle that doesnt carry passengers or cargo. every vehicle means some kind of 'carrier service'; "any service provided by the carrier". all carriers are 1 of 3:
common carrier- taxis, buses, trucks
business but not for hire- school bus? garbage truck? i never figured that one out. every code will require registration of vehicles whos legal title is in the state or used to "carry on a business using the roads"
private carrier- by contract.
there is some legal distinction between private carrier and common carrier, one carries by the fare and the other rents the whole vehicle, apparently. but i never carry anyone or anything, so i cant be any of these. most states (but not CA) say a vehicle is 'any device used for transportation'- theres that word again, TRANSPORTATION.
the illinois vehicle code says that commerce means " trade, transportation, or commerce'... commerce means commerce. thanks government! anyway, its clear that the purpose of every DOT is to regulate COMMERCE, in its subset of 'vehicular transportation'.
at least in PA, i can prove my auto is not a vehicle. It has no title (purged from the system), the VIN comes up 'no record found'. it isnt used for a business, and it doesnt carry anyone or anything. a plain simple ride. and what the cops dont understand, but the judges do, is that it's a contradiction to issue a citation for 'owner no insurance' when the same paper says "owner: no record found". thats it's a contradiction to issue a citation for 'no registration' when registration is only issued to pennsylvania motor vehicles and the same paper says VIN: no record found"... etc. nobody thought there was a business activity, nobody alleged this, the training and protocol is just wrong.
if i need a license, then what is it? why do i need a state issued license? how could you tell if i 'came from a country that'? peering? squinting? gazing? is there a detect-o-meter for nonresidence? how do you know if my country requires licenses or not? how will you verify any of this? you will not, and cannot, because it doesnt exist.
there is no vehicle that doesnt carry passengers or cargo. every vehicle means some kind of 'carrier service'; "any service provided by the carrier". all carriers are 1 of 3:
common carrier- taxis, buses, trucks
business but not for hire- school bus? garbage truck? i never figured that one out. every code will require registration of vehicles whos legal title is in the state or used to "carry on a business using the roads"
private carrier- by contract.
there is some legal distinction between private carrier and common carrier, one carries by the fare and the other rents the whole vehicle, apparently. but i never carry anyone or anything, so i cant be any of these. most states (but not CA) say a vehicle is 'any device used for transportation'- theres that word again, TRANSPORTATION.
the illinois vehicle code says that commerce means " trade, transportation, or commerce'... commerce means commerce. thanks government! anyway, its clear that the purpose of every DOT is to regulate COMMERCE, in its subset of 'vehicular transportation'.
at least in PA, i can prove my auto is not a vehicle. It has no title (purged from the system), the VIN comes up 'no record found'. it isnt used for a business, and it doesnt carry anyone or anything. a plain simple ride. and what the cops dont understand, but the judges do, is that it's a contradiction to issue a citation for 'owner no insurance' when the same paper says "owner: no record found". thats it's a contradiction to issue a citation for 'no registration' when registration is only issued to pennsylvania motor vehicles and the same paper says VIN: no record found"... etc. nobody thought there was a business activity, nobody alleged this, the training and protocol is just wrong.
if i need a license, then what is it? why do i need a state issued license? how could you tell if i 'came from a country that'? peering? squinting? gazing? is there a detect-o-meter for nonresidence? how do you know if my country requires licenses or not? how will you verify any of this? you will not, and cannot, because it doesnt exist.
Sloop John D
Member
I'm pretty sure you could prove if you recently moved from another country, and you could also prove whether or not that country required licensing or not.
Honestly, I'm having some trouble following exactly what you're trying to prove here. You're providing a lot of supporting evidence, but I'm not sure what position it's meant to support. I gather it has something to do with negating state licensing requirements, but I'm not really sure why you think state licensing laws are invalid or to what extent. Is it possible to summarize your point in two or three lines?
Honestly, I'm having some trouble following exactly what you're trying to prove here. You're providing a lot of supporting evidence, but I'm not sure what position it's meant to support. I gather it has something to do with negating state licensing requirements, but I'm not really sure why you think state licensing laws are invalid or to what extent. Is it possible to summarize your point in two or three lines?
illegalbeagle
Member
the burden of proof is not on me. we are not going to have a social studies class and prove anything about "countries" and other made-up fictions in some courthouse here- aint happening. no one wants to hear about it, and not relevant. is the charging instrument really going to aver that "and i found he wasnt from another country that didnt have licenses that we cant see anyway, so there!" there are not 6,435 different possibilities each time an officer stops a motorist: unworkable.
there might be 2- resident and nonresident. all nonresidence is equally nonresident to the local state. this is called "international private law'.
the language in the vehicle code is often strained and assumes too much. registration and licensing are not global, transcendent concepts, they are specific defined things only exist within the given jurisdiction.
summary- all drivers license are some form of occupational permission. designed for trade or business activity.
proof- federal trade or business is exempt.
therefore- trade or business is the subject-matter.
so- private life is not included. even on the public highway.
there might be 2- resident and nonresident. all nonresidence is equally nonresident to the local state. this is called "international private law'.
the language in the vehicle code is often strained and assumes too much. registration and licensing are not global, transcendent concepts, they are specific defined things only exist within the given jurisdiction.
summary- all drivers license are some form of occupational permission. designed for trade or business activity.
proof- federal trade or business is exempt.
therefore- trade or business is the subject-matter.
so- private life is not included. even on the public highway.
LdiJ
Senior Member
I have a question for you. Why do you persist in attempting to debate topics on a free internet legal forum when absolutely no one agrees with you? What benefit to you derive from that? What do you hope to accomplish? It all seems pretty futile to me. Those of use who are experts in our fields are never going to agree with you.
HighwayMan
Super Secret Senior Member
Show me where the New York State Vehicle and Traffic Law exempts anyone from the requirement that they have a license to operate a motor vehicle.
justalayman
Senior Member
I have a morbid sense of entertainment values so I enjoy when people do this but...
just couldn't resist, could you. He's taken you to the edge of the bottomless pit that represents his fantasy world and you went and jumped in.
illegalbeagle
Member
its in every code, 50 states plus territories. why do i have to do your googling? did you run out of fingers? look at the gahldammned post office truck or minivan tomorrow why dont you?? no plates!!!
well, i aim to please, based on my own morbid sense of entertainment as well:
and now, after searching, new york apparently doesnt require anyone to be licensed at all! or i didnt find it:
http://law.justia.com/codes/new-york/2006/vehicle-traffic/vat0501_501.html
these are the licenses and their validity. maybe some other part of NY law requires them... do your own homework. post the New york requirement for licenses.
every other state ive seen- i mean many many all have the same language as California, which i posted above. but you couldnt possibly be surprised that the law will exempt from licensure- all other codes at least contain a provision for nonresidents, which is an exemption. obviously anyone can and does come to New York and drive legally:
http://law.justia.com/codes/new-york/2006/vehicle-traffic/vat0250_250.html
nicely, this exemption makes no requirement to carry any papers or prove anything- its just a general principle. not an exemption so much as an equivalence.
find us the part where "no one shall drive w/o a license"... its usually there, but i cant find it for New York.
the thing about New York is that its like all the other eastern states, the key is in the definition of 'vehicle'.
§ 159. Vehicle. Every device in, upon, or by which any person or
property is or may be transported or drawn upon a highway, except
devices moved by human power or used exclusively upon stationary rails
or tracks.
and id say 'drawn' is included within the activity of transportation, which is inherently a carrier service. 'person or property' = "passengers or cargo".
the liars have hidden the meaning of things within the code. thats why its called a code!!
now this is interesting:
§ 113. Driver. Every person who operates or drives or is in actual
physical control of a vehicle. Whenever the terms "chauffeur" or
"operator" or "chauffeur's license" or "operator's license" are used in
this chapter, such terms shall be deemed to mean driver and driver's
license respectively.
you know a "chauffeur" is defined as a person employed to operate a motor vehicle, or one who operate the vehicle for hire or compensation or profit... a "chauffeurs license" is a drivers license, in other words. which is the whole point of this thread. i like New York!
§ 128. Owner. A person, other than a lien holder, having the property
in or title to a vehicle or vessel.
and where do we see "owners"? on the certificate of title. and when there is no certificate, then who is the owner? this 'owner' is the primary responder for many things here, including registration and insurance and parking tickets and etc. and red light and speed cameras... 'no record found' means no liability. where will they send the ticket?
Illinois says a "vehicle for which a junking certificate has been issued is not a vehicle"... kind of a circle but there it is. junking certs are easily available and they are free, you swap the regular title with a simple form, and send it in to the DOT. doesnt actually have to be junk and they dont ask. end result is they purge the title and the VIN has no corresponding record attached.
well, i aim to please, based on my own morbid sense of entertainment as well:
and now, after searching, new york apparently doesnt require anyone to be licensed at all! or i didnt find it:
http://law.justia.com/codes/new-york/2006/vehicle-traffic/vat0501_501.html
these are the licenses and their validity. maybe some other part of NY law requires them... do your own homework. post the New york requirement for licenses.
every other state ive seen- i mean many many all have the same language as California, which i posted above. but you couldnt possibly be surprised that the law will exempt from licensure- all other codes at least contain a provision for nonresidents, which is an exemption. obviously anyone can and does come to New York and drive legally:
http://law.justia.com/codes/new-york/2006/vehicle-traffic/vat0250_250.html
nicely, this exemption makes no requirement to carry any papers or prove anything- its just a general principle. not an exemption so much as an equivalence.
find us the part where "no one shall drive w/o a license"... its usually there, but i cant find it for New York.
the thing about New York is that its like all the other eastern states, the key is in the definition of 'vehicle'.
§ 159. Vehicle. Every device in, upon, or by which any person or
property is or may be transported or drawn upon a highway, except
devices moved by human power or used exclusively upon stationary rails
or tracks.
and id say 'drawn' is included within the activity of transportation, which is inherently a carrier service. 'person or property' = "passengers or cargo".
the liars have hidden the meaning of things within the code. thats why its called a code!!
now this is interesting:
§ 113. Driver. Every person who operates or drives or is in actual
physical control of a vehicle. Whenever the terms "chauffeur" or
"operator" or "chauffeur's license" or "operator's license" are used in
this chapter, such terms shall be deemed to mean driver and driver's
license respectively.
you know a "chauffeur" is defined as a person employed to operate a motor vehicle, or one who operate the vehicle for hire or compensation or profit... a "chauffeurs license" is a drivers license, in other words. which is the whole point of this thread. i like New York!
§ 128. Owner. A person, other than a lien holder, having the property
in or title to a vehicle or vessel.
and where do we see "owners"? on the certificate of title. and when there is no certificate, then who is the owner? this 'owner' is the primary responder for many things here, including registration and insurance and parking tickets and etc. and red light and speed cameras... 'no record found' means no liability. where will they send the ticket?
Illinois says a "vehicle for which a junking certificate has been issued is not a vehicle"... kind of a circle but there it is. junking certs are easily available and they are free, you swap the regular title with a simple form, and send it in to the DOT. doesnt actually have to be junk and they dont ask. end result is they purge the title and the VIN has no corresponding record attached.
CdwJava
Senior Member
It is amazing how none of the state judiciaries or the defense bar gave picked up on this revelation that a driver's license is not necessary, and that we have been enforcing traffic regulations unlawfully for about a century. Wow! And you heard it first on Freeadvice! We scooped even the law journals!
HighwayMan
Super Secret Senior Member
No! I really couldn't resist.
Especially when this nonsense is allowed to continue!
HighwayMan
Super Secret Senior Member
WRONG. There is no exemption in New York.
You didn't find it. Gee, what a surprise.
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illegalbeagle
Member
@ Carl the NorCal cop:
things get unlawfully enforced all the time, and charges get dropped, people are aqcuitted... its been known to happen. do you really think your friends in the bar association will let any appeal establish a useful precedent? its much simpler to drop the charge. so what if life isnt fair? I think pulling dying children from massive car slaughters is of way more concern. This vehicle thing is penny-ante BS. Ive lived a charmed life and have no cause to complain.
and in most cases enforcement may well be lawful since te vehicle titled or registered. there is however a lot of unlawful attempts at attaching liabilty that will fail. Remember that California municipality that lost its bonding insurance and had to shut down the police dept? its all a question of what people will abide.
you never did answer my question- if my privilege was suspended in CA and I was driving a post office truck as an employee could I lawfully be arrested or charged despite the clear statutory exemption?
things get unlawfully enforced all the time, and charges get dropped, people are aqcuitted... its been known to happen. do you really think your friends in the bar association will let any appeal establish a useful precedent? its much simpler to drop the charge. so what if life isnt fair? I think pulling dying children from massive car slaughters is of way more concern. This vehicle thing is penny-ante BS. Ive lived a charmed life and have no cause to complain.
and in most cases enforcement may well be lawful since te vehicle titled or registered. there is however a lot of unlawful attempts at attaching liabilty that will fail. Remember that California municipality that lost its bonding insurance and had to shut down the police dept? its all a question of what people will abide.
you never did answer my question- if my privilege was suspended in CA and I was driving a post office truck as an employee could I lawfully be arrested or charged despite the clear statutory exemption?
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