Seething!

[Teggie]

What is the name of your state?What is the name of your state? Texas

Hi all just need to know if I'm heading in the right direction. My ex and I have joint custody of our two daughters with me being the custodial parant. Our decree states that we can work visitation times out between us. If we cannot agree to visitation then it states we go to court appointed visitation. (Wens nights and 1st, 3rd & 5th WE's) We have been divorced for 6 years. My husband , I and the kids have recently moved back to my hometown where my ex also lives. We have always been able to work out visitation before but now there are problems. My 13 yr old thinks her stepfather is a drill sargent, keeps her "stressed" all the time, because we discipline and expect her to do chores. The 6 yr old seems to go with whatever opinion is being presented at the time. Mine, her father's etc etc. When the girls go with my ex they have fun, he spends alot of money on them and lets them do whatever. We don't do that. The 13 yr old complains to her father that we are too strict and she wants to live with him, I have refused to let her. The 6 yr old cries whenever he brings her home. This is disruptive to how we are trying to raise the children.

We have had one episode of him picking the 13 yr old up from ball practice without our knowledge and kept her for 2 hrs while we were frantically out looking for her, thinking that she had been abducted.

We have had 2 episodes of him refusing to bring the kids back home, esp if I am working, I work 12 hr night shifts so sometimes they have to come home to the stepdad. The last time he showed up drunk at my workplace and stated he wasn't bringing them home because "they are terrified of thier stepdad" and they don't want to go home.

I am ready to blow a gasket.... I told him on the spot when he showed up at my job that we were going to court ordered visitation times as stated in the decree and if he felt they were in an unsafe environment take me to court and prove it.

What I need to know is do I need to get my lawyer and have anything done if the decree already states the court ordered visitation in absence of agreed visitation?

Does the visitation need to go to court ordered status before I can file him in contempt? He is in contempt, right?

Just need to seek out my options, I will pay everything I have and dance with the devil just to have some peace from all this.

Thanks to anyone that replies. Teggie

 

[kat1963]

And when you file contempt he will file for custody, it is the nature of the beast. At 13, your older child can express his/her wishes to judge. You've already pretty much stated that the child wants to live with her father. You work nights; they are left in the care of a stepparent they are afraid of. You are demanding that they be returned home even though you aren't there to care for them. This could be a battle & just might take everything you have not only financially but physically & emotionally as well.

I've been there with teenagers, they wanted to decamped to their mother's house because I was *step parent drill sergeant* and the courts let them. Oh, excuse me, I guess in order to keep custody we should have let them run wild in the streets like biomom proceeded to do. Of course they wanted to live with her. She had no rules she was never the main disciplinarian. She had no clue how to parent. Instead of pulling those kids out of the cradle & molding them into responsible adults, she climbed right in there with them. The courts said it was time she bonded with her children. She bonded with them alright!! All the way to 8th grade educations, criminal records & illegitimate pregnancies. While this is horrifying to us, it’s just another day in the life of biomom’s entire family (more like, welcome to the club, you are one of us now!)

I don’t know what else is going on but you might want to take the time before you go see a good family law attorney to read up to PAS (parental alienation syndrome). There is plenty of information on the internet.

I think that this website (click on the numbers at the top) might really hit home, especially for your husband.
http://www.othermother.com/html/pledge_frm.html

Again, see a good family law attorney before you say anything to him. He/she would know best how the judges in your area are likely to rule in such a case.



KAT

 

[adonahee]

What you went thru is HORRIBLE kat1963!

But what are you advising Teggie to do? There are inconsistencies in every state - every COUNTY in every state - so I'm stepping out on a limb to disagree that she should just lie down and take it.
I don't believe she could file contempt at this point - There is no set schedule, and Ex could always argue that he "thought" it was his turn for pick up or whatever...even though it's BS. It may be best if OP proposes a set schedule, one that provides more time than EOW +Weds., and document how he sticks to it - or doesn't. That way, when you go back to demonstrate WHY it couldn't be worked out between you, you will have records - Not just your statement that he is unreasonable. I would keep your attorney informed of everything you do to attempt to come up with an agreement, and every way it has failed, if it does.
At 13, of course your daughter wants to do what she wants to do. That doesn't mean it's good for her, and it doesn't mean you should bend the rules either. Explain to her that your doing what's best for her to raise her to be responsible, and that you love her. It would be up to your Ex to prove it's better to let her run wild, so let him try to do so. Your daughter's opinion only counts for so much.
And Kat, I think you got a bum deal.

 

[LdiJ]

What is the name of your state?What is the name of your state? Texas

Hi all just need to know if I'm heading in the right direction. My ex and I have joint custody of our two daughters with me being the custodial parant. Our decree states that we can work visitation times out between us. If we cannot agree to visitation then it states we go to court appointed visitation. (Wens nights and 1st, 3rd & 5th WE's) We have been divorced for 6 years. My husband , I and the kids have recently moved back to my hometown where my ex also lives. We have always been able to work out visitation before but now there are problems. My 13 yr old thinks her stepfather is a drill sargent, keeps her "stressed" all the time, because we discipline and expect her to do chores. The 6 yr old seems to go with whatever opinion is being presented at the time. Mine, her father's etc etc. When the girls go with my ex they have fun, he spends alot of money on them and lets them do whatever. We don't do that. The 13 yr old complains to her father that we are too strict and she wants to live with him, I have refused to let her. The 6 yr old cries whenever he brings her home. This is disruptive to how we are trying to raise the children.

We have had one episode of him picking the 13 yr old up from ball practice without our knowledge and kept her for 2 hrs while we were frantically out looking for her, thinking that she had been abducted.

We have had 2 episodes of him refusing to bring the kids back home, esp if I am working, I work 12 hr night shifts so sometimes they have to come home to the stepdad. The last time he showed up drunk at my workplace and stated he wasn't bringing them home because "they are terrified of thier stepdad" and they don't want to go home.

I am ready to blow a gasket.... I told him on the spot when he showed up at my job that we were going to court ordered visitation times as stated in the decree and if he felt they were in an unsafe environment take me to court and prove it.

What I need to know is do I need to get my lawyer and have anything done if the decree already states the court ordered visitation in absence of agreed visitation?

Does the visitation need to go to court ordered status before I can file him in contempt? He is in contempt, right?

Just need to seek out my options, I will pay everything I have and dance with the devil just to have some peace from all this.

Thanks to anyone that replies. Teggie

If your decree is specific that it goes to the 1st, 3rd, & 5th weekends and every wednesday evening, then you don't have to take it back to court to put that in effect. However, if dad isn't satisfied with that he may take back to court himself.

Him talking your 13 year old after practice without telling anyone, and his showing up drunk at your workplace are not good...in fact, they are quite bad.

However, you have some potential problems when it comes to custody/parenting time if it goes to court. The first of course is that your 13 year old WILL get some say in the matter. How much weight a judge will give that varies. The second problem is that you work nights. Generally if one parent works nights and the other doesn't, the courts will place the children with the other parent on the nights that the parent is working.

Also, please think vary carefully. IS your husband a "drill sargent" when it comes to the kids? IS his discipline a little too exact? If so, that might factor in as well.

I am not saying that you would lose for sure if it went to court. I am simply saying that there are some negatives on your end too.

 

[stealth2]

I think it is reasonable to look at whether the 13 yo has a point in her view of stepDad. I certainly advocate children having chores and responsibilities, but if his parenting style is way different than yours - maybe that needs to be addressed.

One thing I'd also look at is whether she gets any perks as a result of her age, or if she and the 6 yo are treated as a unit. Some people feel that all the kids should have the same "rules" (my ex/his wife among them), but a 7 year difference in age should provide the older child some passes due to her age. For example, our son is nearly 13 and his Dad has a 6 yo stepdaughter (in addition to our 10 yo daughter and his 8 yo stepson). The rules are the same across the board. So our son has to go to bed (in the summer) at 7pm, just like the 6 yo stepdaughter. I'm sure you can imagine how that grates.

Blending families is, I think, always tricky. Especially when the stepparent is placed in a position of discipline (such as stepDad must be if Mom's working nights). I'm not a stepparent, but I do get to see the pov of the kids. Pretty much I tell mine that the rules at Dad's are the rules they follow while there, and if there is something they'd like to see done differently - he's the one they have to discuss it with.

I have to say, also, that my ex likely thinks I'm too lax with the kids. Well, no - I know he does. It's just a different parenting style. But I don't find that I need to wield a big stick to get them to help around the house. OP doesnt' say how long she's been remarried, but perhaps she, hubby and teh kids would benefit from a few sessions with a counselor to sort some of these things out?

 

[rmet4nzkx]

It is really best that you keep your threads together since they are about the same subject and so we don't answer the same quetion over and over again, it is ok to add to it.

Now according to what you have written that you have primany and physical custody of your children and that until you moved back to the same town where your ex lives you had no problems with visitation which was as agreed and with a court ordered backup plan. By not putting it all together you also left out the reason for moving back to your home town was that you and your current husband had separated and later reconciled, which further complicates the issue around how your husband/step father are preceived. It also puts an additional strain on the situation.

At 12 or 13 it is natural for your daughter to resist the move from her friends, to not want restrictions and to be manipulative, I also get a feeling that you are perhaps overprotective. For instance, you try to impose your rules on them when they are at their father's which only serves to make you out to be the meanie and feeds the natural manipulation which goes on. Are these truly you wishes or are they your effort to keep the peace with your husband since the reconciliation? Are there controll issues in that relaitonship? Something was wrong to make a major move and reconcilliation? Then, dad can always fall back on, "well, I would let you BUT your mother won't let me" or "Your mother doesn't want you to do this but I have the right to do what I want during this time so we will go ahead and...." See?

It was wrong to pick up the child from a game without informing you if you were not expecting it or other inappropriate things. However going to the trouble to take your daughter back to see her old town friends and bf and staying to meet the parents, well, that was in many ways a responsibile act even though he didn't get your clearance ahead of time, he didn't neet it. That act may have aided in her transition from her old comfort zone, she had no choice in the move and having a parent meet the other parent can be very difficult for the young teens, nothing worse than a parent sticking their nose in "their relationship'.

If you want you girls to not be caught up in the fun with daddy no fun with mommy divorced visitation syndrome them the father has to be afforded the opportunity to exercise his responsibility during ordinary times, not just the fun times. Since there is some flexibility still keep them more than 50 % of the time but make it during your work week, that eliminated the excuse of the strict step father and means their father will have to contend with the ordinary things and not just getting the children for fun times when he has the whim and you will get them in your off times and can have more of the fun times. It will mean that he will have to contend with the problems that arise, at least you live closer so there is not the distance, take this and make it work to your advantage to normalize the playing field.

 

[Teggie]

I will speak carefully here, as I have read other posts that seemed to get rather nasty. I apologize for the length of this, just felt I needed to clarify further.

I am sorry I did not add to my original post, I was afraid my current concerns would be buried under an old post headline.

My husband and I had split up for 6 weeks after 6 years of marriage, I was forced to move back home because all my family is around here and were willing to help me. We reconciled and since I already had moved into a house and was employed close by he came here to live with us. My 13 yr old was happy he was coming home as I talked at length with her about it before the reconciliation occured. I work 12 hour night shifts but only have to work 3 nights one week and two the next. My ex always has them every weekend I work which is every other weekend. His job is one of long hours in the oil feild so I have tried to be open to his requests to see the girls during the week. After my first post I attempted to let him keep them during the week when I worked also, however they were being left at his sister's house with no reliable transportation to school so unless he asked I had them stay home on weeknights that I work. My husbands job allows him to take the kids to and from school.

Since my original post occured my husband has been making a concious effort to not appear so "strict" while still trying to enforce the rules we have in our household. We try to keep everything out in the open and try to keep the communication lines open. Our rules are simple ones, everyone helps out, respect each other and since the 13 yr old is older we limit her phone time, and since her grades have not been great lately some of her extraciricular activities are restricted also. The main problems we have had with her lately is not being ready on time in the am, wanting to wear inappropiate clothing, backtalking and disrespect, typical teen type issues. I talk to her frequently, and from those talks I have concluded that she gets upset with her stepdad for enforcing the rules that she doesn't like. She told me just today that she really doesn't want to live with her dad it's just that everytime she's with her dad he constantly asks about me and her stepdad and tells her that she doesn't have to listen to her stepdad or do anything he asks her to do. I have asked both girls if they were afraid of thier stepfather. The answer was no, they just didn't like him "being bossy to them". The 6 yr old cries alot, not just when her dad brings her home but also when we drop her off at school or when she doesn't get her way or if the wind blows wrong. 5 minutes later she's over it and onto something else. They enjoy time with thier dad, he's always fun whereas home involves a little work. When your a kid what are you gonna want? fun or chores? They are not old enough to make that decision in my opinion. They only see good times with him, he's not around for the discipline part of it.

I have learned alot since I originally posted, at that time, with the limited legal knowledge I have, I was honestly terrified of losing my girls. Then I began to learn about my rights. I also see things a little bit clearer, understanding that he has the right to run his visitations as he sees fit, it doesn't matter if I agree or not. I didn't see that before but I do now.

My problem remains is that our household is constantly in turmoil due to my ex's actions. Him picking up the 13 year old without our knowledge while we searched for her for 2 hours. He has picked her up other times also without telling us beforehand but calling us from his cell phone after he'd already picked her up to tell us he had her, if we asked him to bring her home he'd show up an hour or two later. The last time he refused to bring them home had a bit more to the story, he had called earlier in the evening and asked my husband if he could take the girls to the football game and to a little party afterwards, my husband called me (I was at work) and asked me, I said I thought it would be allright, (our visitation to this point is what we both agree on) but to please have them home by midnight because we had plans the next morning and I wanted them to get some sleep. My husband relayed that to the ex and said the ex said okay. My husband calls me back at work at 1230am and says "I just thought I'd let you know the girls haven't returned". My ex calls me at 1 am and says the girls want to stay with him that night. I say I'd be glad to let them stay over the next night but they needed to be home because we had plans for the early am. He puts the 13 yr old on the phone, she says she forgot about the plans, (although we had just talked about it earlier that day) then the cell cuts out and the call is lost. At 2 am he's at my workplace, smelling of alcohol and telling me in front of my coworkers that he refuses to take the girls home because they don't want to go home. Thats when I told him if he felt they were in an unsafe environment take me to court and prove it, and since agreed visitation was obviously not working out we would go to the court appointed visitation. He turned around and left with the girls in tow. I went and picked them up as soon as I got off work.

When I arrived at his house he started questioning me as to why I was wanting to go to go to court ordered visitation. I told him it was because our current visitation was not working out and I was tired of the constant turmoil being caused by his actions. Then he began badmouthing my husband and badmouthing me as I was leaving. My ex had tried to reconcile with me when my husband and I were seperated. He was very angry when we got back together, I have to feel some of this is a sort of payback for me refusing him. Whether thats the case or not I know is not revelant to the current issues I face.

Am I supposed to just let him do this day after day? When he has the kids I don't call and tell him how to run his vists. But I do expect them to be home at the agreed time. And I think back to several monthes ago when the girls were lucky to get a call twice a month from him. Get over it, I know...

I'm sticking with the court ordered visitation times as stated in the decree, because I feel that agreed visitation is not working at this point. I understand from replies to this post that I can most likely do that. I will be seeking my lawyer's advice Monday as to how and when a contempt could be issued, if appropiate. And for feedback as to how to best handle things. I am documenting everything from here on out. If it backfires and he takes me to court? More power to him, because this is not an unstable environment and my kids are not being mistreated. I will spend every dime I own and walk over coals if I have to. My kids deserve it. Nobody is perfect, we just all do the best we can. Thanks for the replies I have recived I feel more secure in my decision. Teggie

 

[rmet4nzkx]

I'm sorry if it seemed a bit nasty but think of it in terms of reality therapy. I also see that maybe because of it you are getting some insight.

First of all your separation, move, reconcilliation etc plays a major role in complicating your new and evolving relationships. Visitation has changed and will continue to change. There is no way it will be the same as before. By using the court ordered visitation he will be responsible for times that are not at his whim and when he has need to provide childcare, he needs to provide appropriate child care and not leave the children alone. Then the children will eventual appreciate the structure and he will appreciate some of your experience.

Then hopefully you can work up to him having more time, maybe it was too much too soon to think that the more flexible would automatically work. He needs to have those days when he comes home from the oil fields and is too tired to do anything to realize that his children require his attention, they can't just be there for the good times. They need to appreciate that all their parents work hard to support them, each in their different ways.

You need to have some of those good times with your children on the weekends too. So hopefully with a while of the structured visitation you will both appreciate the flexibility but you will have to communicate. You might also want to take your daughter back to visit her friends from time to time, maybe even an overnight with the girl friends, supervised of course, moves are difficult at that age.

 

[Teggie]

Thank you rmet4nzkx, I agree with 100% of your last post. I didn't realize, until I read the part about how the visitation has changed, just how true that is in my situation. Sometimes I don't see the forest for the trees in the way. I am hopeful that court appointed visitation will add some structure and insight to all this turbulance. I really feel like 95% of this problem can be solved with education on both my and my ex's part. Thanks again, your responses are much appreciated. Teggie

 

[rmet4nzkx]

You're welcome, I try to be objective, because it is not easy seeing the forest for the trees, in your situation everyone is having to change against their wills, making supportive relaitons more difficult. Good luck.

 

[Teggie]

And so it begins....

Just an update of sorts. Went to court mandated visitation on September 12th. Wrote all the dates out on a calender and then printed two copies and gave one to my ex when he arrived for his wens pm visit. He calls me at 7:30pm during his visit and tells me he doesn't like the arrangments. I say I'm sorry but thats what the decree reads. So I hear no more. Weekend visit comes and goes without a glitch, here I am thinking, ok, maybye this will work. WRONG....today I see a constable car pull up in front of my house, I then get served with a petition to modify parant/child relationship. It states in there that he wants primary custodial parant, and that the 13 yr old has stated and written her wish to live with him. The 13 yr old says she has told her dad she wants to stay with him but had'nt signed anything. (Her wants seem to change every day from wanting her father or me) I have to go to a hearing for temporary orders on Sept 28th. The petition states that the children's physical and emotional well being may be in danger. I have just hit bottom, I am floored, down and terrified. The petition lists both of my girls but seems to focus on the 13 yr old. Not anything is said about the 6 yr old. But her name is listed also. I don't know if he's after one or both. I have an attorny appt in the am. I am taking my divorce decree, the petition, and my documentation of all his visits and activities since we started court appointed visitation. I also wrote down a past history of how visitation has been since he and I first seperated. I am an emoitional mud puddle. I ask the 13 yr old. "Are you really wanting to live with your dad?" She tells me sometimes she does and sometimes she doesn't. The 6 yr old is upset because she sees me upset. The 13 yr old doesn't seem to realize just how big of a thing this is. She only sees what she wants, of course she's a kid. So I'm wondering what to expect now? What aspects should I be concentrating on? I have an appt with the attorny, I'm at least smart enough to do that. But I'm really scared he's going to somehow pull this off. I know they aren't mistreated here, I know my 13 yr old only concentrates on what she wants and feels like she'll get her way with her father. My 6 yr old is confused, she loves both of us. Now I have to tell them I'll have no money for Christmas presents because I'm sure I'm gonna have to beg, steal and borrow to try to pay the lawyer. I told my 13 yr old, "You say you want to live with your dad, however just your say so ain't gonna cut it, there has to be a court that will decide where is the better place for you to live. And I'm not giving you up, I will fight as hard as I have to because I love you and I want whats best for you" She looked surprised, like she thought whatever she says goes. I know she really doesn't know what it's all about. My ex just sold the house we all lived in when we were married. He now lives in a spare room at his sister's house. He still works in the oil field with it's late hours and frequent weekends. I just wonder how he thinks he could take care of them better than I. Here they have thier own room, 2 parantal figures that give a damn, reliable transportation to school and back, clothing, food and most importantly people who love them. Any advice?

 

[stealth2]

Try not to panic, and hear what the lawyer has to say. Discuss with him/her the wisdom of asking for a GAL.

I would also urge you to NOT discuss this with your girls in any way, shape or form. For starters, the switching minds and uncertainty you see is exactly why children do not get to make these decisions. Secondly, until you said something to her, your 13yo thought that she had the power and just had to say which parent she wanted to live with and voila! so it would be. Also, your ex bringing her into the middle will not make a judge pleased.

However, by bringing it up with her, you'll have done two things - one with some potentially serious consequences. The least serious is that you'll negate the negative points of Dad sucking her into it. You're both doing it, so the judge won't be pleased with either of you. The more serious is, if she really does decide she wants to be with Dad (regardless of the reasons), you have now put the realization in her head that she has to do more than simply say it's what she wants. You already know that she has issues with her stepfather - and I would bet that's the direction she'll take in getting her way. If she and Dad get it into their heads to accuse him of abuse - there could be potentially devastating results.

I don't say the above to scare you or upset you more than I am sure you already are. But you need to go into this without any blinders, 'cause it could get much uglier.

 

[VeronicaGia]

Now I have to tell them I'll have no money for Christmas presents because I'm sure I'm gonna have to beg, steal and borrow to try to pay the lawyer. I told my 13 yr old, "You say you want to live with your dad, however just your say so ain't gonna cut it, there has to be a court that will decide where is the better place for you to live. And I'm not giving you up, I will fight as hard as I have to because I love you and I want whats best for you" She looked surprised, like she thought whatever she says goes. I know she really doesn't know what it's all about. My ex just sold the house we all lived in when we were married. He now lives in a spare room at his sister's house. He still works in the oil field with it's late hours and frequent weekends. I just wonder how he thinks he could take care of them better than I. Here they have thier own room, 2 parantal figures that give a damn, reliable transportation to school and back, clothing, food and most importantly people who love them. Any advice?

I am only concentrating on this part of your post. Are you really going to tell your kids this about their Christmas presents? Terrific parenting there! Tell the kids THEY get to pay the price for the ADULTS who disagree. They've already paid dearly, now this.

As far as your house with "2 parental figures.....who love them," your husband is not the father of these kids, and he has no more right to punish them than I do. He is a legal stranger to these kids. Not to mention your hint of insinuating that their father doesn't love them, or doesn't love them as much.

Look I don't know how all this will turn out, but dad has every right to see these kids more often and to try to get custody. If you two are going to drag the kids into this, it will only make them suffer more. Personally, I think you should try to work this out with him instead of dragging this on and on. Two parents agreeing IS IN THE BEST INTERESTS OF THE CHILDREN, not a court fight.

 

[BelizeBreeze]

What I need to know is do I need to get my lawyer and have anything done if the decree already states the court ordered visitation in absence of agreed visitation?

And I will only address this question.

Yes, there is something you can do to get some peace. You can give up custody. Because lady, if my ex's husband, boyfriend or other put a hand on my daughters or even tried to discipline them in any way, he and I would have a come to jesus meeting with him losing.

Your issue is with divorce, NOT with the fact that your ex spends money on the girls, has different rules or even that the children want to live with him. So, give up the girls and have some peace or grow the hell up. YOU divorced their father, they did not.

And if you don't have a long talk with your ex about keeping his mouth shut then you may lose the girls anyway.

 

[Kimmyf1965]

I just wanted you know that sometimes you have to let go. I went through the same thing with my daughter when she was 16. All of the sudden out of the blue she wanted to live with her dad. I tried so hard to keep her from making a mistake. In the ended that I finally told her that she wasn't going to be happy until she tried it. She moved in with her dad at age 16. I don't want to go into the whole story but it was a huge mistake for her. As soon as she turned 18 he kicked her out. Both he and I made about the same amount of money therefore I had custody of one child and he had her. Therefore, until she reached the age of 18 neither of us had to pay child support. Basically, when she turned 18 he didn't need her anymore because he had to start paying child support. She is now 19 going on 20 and to this day doesn't have contact with her dad. I know that's horrible but he has ran into her at stores and won't even speak to her. She has tried to be nice to him but he doesn't show any interest. I know your story is different but like I said sometimes you have to let them make their mistakes and learn from them. I know that my daughter now thinks twice when I give her my opionion on things.