Spousal Support Question - Retirement Age

[wileybunch]

What is the name of your state? California

This question is for my mom's situation in CA. She is finally leaving her husband of 19 years (I say finally because this was not a relationship that's served her, but she came out of a long-term marriage w/my dad and made a bad choice in men and hung in there this long). She is 69 (and in good health, takes very good care of herself); he is 66 (also in good health). They both draw social security, she just in the past year or two; he started drawing at 62. He is self employed (stock trading) and only works to make the bare minimum he needs to make in addition to renting rooms out in his Silicon Valley home . She's worked for many years at the same company. She was a stay at home Mom while raising 5 kids and then went to school and got a business degree when she was 55. She gets paid well, but it's Silicon Valley so it's not like she's socking money away with it, either. He has a master's degree, but dropped out of the workforce to have his own home business and at some point switched to stock trading. He has a low threshold of what it takes to live comfortably.

We think they can agree to each keep their residences and maybe the only sticking point will be spousal support if he thinks he's entitled to it. He owed a residence before they married w/a prenup, but it's appreciated probably $800K since then, however he took a reverse mortgage on it a couple years ago so not sure how much true equity is in there, but technically my mom would be "entitled" to ~$400K of it. She purchased a home ~5 years ago that he signed his rights away to (they had planned to split up). It's got probably $150K equity in it. It's in the Sacramento area so sits empty most of the time. She hasn't wanted to part with it, but it's too far away to live in and she hadn't wanted to give up her current job to work somewhere near her home. She has a 401(k) and pension w/her company, though it was hit when company went through bankruptcy and was resurrected so it's "not much."

My simple question is if she could under any circumstances owe him spousal support?
My follow up question is if she could, if she were to retire from her current job, would that change the answer? If she started to work again in the future, could that reopen the issue? She cannot afford to stay in Silicon Valley so we are floating the idea of her coming to live with us and maybe substitute teaching and/or taking classes to get a teaching credential here (she has an adult ESL teaching credential in CA).

If additional facts are needed, let me know.

Thanks in advance!

 

[Bali Hai]

What is the name of your state? California

This question is for my mom's situation in CA. She is finally leaving her husband of 19 years (I say finally because this was not a relationship that's served her, but she came out of a long-term marriage w/my dad and made a bad choice in men and hung in there this long). She is 69 (and in good health, takes very good care of herself); he is 66 (also in good health). They both draw social security, she just in the past year or two; he started drawing at 62. He is self employed (stock trading) and only works to make the bare minimum he needs to make in addition to renting rooms out in his Silicon Valley home . She's worked for many years at the same company. She was a stay at home Mom while raising 5 kids and then went to school and got a business degree when she was 55. She gets paid well, but it's Silicon Valley so it's not like she's socking money away with it, either. He has a master's degree, but dropped out of the workforce to have his own home business and at some point switched to stock trading. He has a low threshold of what it takes to live comfortably.

We think they can agree to each keep their residences and maybe the only sticking point will be spousal support if he thinks he's entitled to it. He owed a residence before they married w/a prenup, but it's appreciated probably $800K since then, however he took a reverse mortgage on it a couple years ago so not sure how much true equity is in there, but technically my mom would be "entitled" to ~$400K of it. She purchased a home ~5 years ago that he signed his rights away to (they had planned to split up). It's got probably $150K equity in it. It's in the Sacramento area so sits empty most of the time. She hasn't wanted to part with it, but it's too far away to live in and she hadn't wanted to give up her current job to work somewhere near her home. She has a 401(k) and pension w/her company, though it was hit when company went through bankruptcy and was resurrected so it's "not much."

And it will be even less when he takes half of it.

My simple question is if she could under any circumstances owe him spousal support?

Yes of course she could. And in addition to that, she owes him $75k equity for the house in Sacramento!

My follow up question is if she could, if she were to retire from her current job, would that change the answer?

Nope, people who owe spousal support are expected to pay it. Quitting a current job does not neutralize that obligation.

If she started to work again in the future, could that reopen the issue?

Sure it could if she is able to pay more.

She cannot afford to stay in Silicon Valley so we are floating the idea of her coming to live with us and maybe substitute teaching and/or taking classes to get a teaching credential here (she has an adult ESL teaching credential in CA).

If additional facts are needed, let me know.

Thanks in advance!

I think it would be best if your mother came here, asked questions and provided necessary additional facts.

 

[wileybunch]

BaliHai, he has far more equity in his home than she does ($800K to her $150K) so it's not as though they HAVE to go 50/50 on each thing to be addressed in a tit for tat manner (can I say that? ). He is far better educated than her (masters degree in chemistry but chooses to underemploy himself though currently looking for a "real" job now b/c he knows he'll be losing her health benefits ...) so funny how you think she's trying to cheat out of something. You really distrust women, don't you?

What necessary additional facts are you looking for?

 

[LdiJ]

BaliHai, he has far more equity in his home than she does ($800K to her $150K) so it's not as though they HAVE to go 50/50 on each thing to be addressed in a tit for tat manner (can I say that? ). He is far better educated than her (masters degree in chemistry but chooses to underemploy himself though currently looking for a "real" job now b/c he knows he'll be losing her health benefits ...) so funny how you think she's trying to cheat out of something. You really distrust women, don't you?

What necessary additional facts are you looking for?

I think that your mother needs to hire an attorney. There is too much involved here for the two of them to even remotely consider a do it yourself divorce.

However, if she is willing to give up any rights to the equity in his home, she should certainly do that only if he agrees to absolutely no spousal support from her. How much does he actually have invested in the stock market? That's a marital asset too.

Also, your mom is well past retirement age. No judge could fault her if she decided to retire now, nor would it even be reasonable to based any spousal support on her current earnings.

 

[Bali Hai]

BaliHai, he has far more equity in his home than she does ($800K to her $150K) so it's not as though they HAVE to go 50/50 on each thing to be addressed in a tit for tat manner (can I say that? ). He is far better educated than her (masters degree in chemistry but chooses to underemploy himself though currently looking for a "real" job now b/c he knows he'll be losing her health benefits ...) so funny how you think she's trying to cheat out of something. You really distrust women, don't you?

What necessary additional facts are you looking for?

Not the women themselves, but the system that they set up to make slaves out of the men they marry.

 

[wileybunch]

Not the women themselves, but the system that they set up to make slaves out of the men they marry.

I will have to let my mom know this. She has no idea she has held so much power for so long. If you only could see the truth in situations, you'd realize how foolish a lot of your rantings are. Get over it already. I know how "men are screwed" in situations, but men have also very often greatly benefitted from the woman in their life when it's all sweetness (such as my mother with my father growing up -- he made a good choice in women b/c my mom was a rock and allowed him to have a large family and held down the fort and we had a good life) let me tell you that if I tweaked with my judge (female), I would have had my ass handed to me as she was a little biased towards fathers, but ultimately if you put your stuff in front of a judge and tweak with them, expect to have some degree of your ass handed to you. Keep in mind that the woman that screwed you over so badly in divorce was a woman of YOUR choosing, no one else's.

I think that your mother needs to hire an attorney. There is too much involved here for the two of them to even remotely consider a do it yourself divorce.

However, if she is willing to give up any rights to the equity in his home, she should certainly do that only if he agrees to absolutely no spousal support from her. How much does he actually have invested in the stock market? That's a marital asset too.

Also, your mom is well past retirement age. No judge could fault her if she decided to retire now, nor would it even be reasonable to based any spousal support on her current earnings.

She doesn't want any equity from his home -- would prefer they each keep what is "theirs" and not attempt to go 50/50 on each item. They've been together for many years now operating in this individual but together manner, she being a caretaker and afraid to make a final move, he needing her health insurance. You're right that what he owns in stock is hers, too. She doesn't want any of that, either, but it's important for her to know what all is there.

Thanks -- I was wondering WRT her age because I was hoping she couldn't be FORCED to keep working simply to support a man who is wholly capable of making more than he does and is younger than her. She needs to slow it down and move into the next phase of her life.

 

[Bali Hai]

I will have to let my mom know this. She has no idea she has held so much power for so long. If you only could see the truth in situations, you'd realize how foolish a lot of your rantings are. Get over it already. I know how "men are screwed" in situations, but men have also very often greatly benefitted from the woman in my life (such as my mother with my father growing up -- he made a good choices in women) let me tell you that if I tweaked with my judge (female), I would have had my ass handed to me as she was a little biased towards fathers, but ultimately if you put your stuff in front of a judge and tweak with them, expect to have some degree of your ass handed to you. Keep in mind that the woman that screwed you over so badly in divorce was a woman of YOUR choosing, no one else's.

She doesn't want any equity from his home -- would prefer they each keep what is "theirs" and not attempt to go 50/50 on each item. They've been together for many years now operating in this individual but together manner, she being a caretaker and afraid to make a final move, he needing her health insurance. You're right that what he owns in stock is hers, too. She doesn't want any of that, either, but it's important for her to know what all is there.

Thanks -- I was wondering WRT her age because I was hoping she couldn't be FORCED to keep working simply to support a man who is wholly capable of making more than he does and is younger than her.

Happens to men all the time!!

She needs to slow it down and move into the next phase of her life.

Keep in mind that the system women set up, let her get away with it!

 

[LdiJ]

FORCED to keep working simply to support a man who is wholly capable of making more than he does and is younger than her.

Happens to men all the time!!

BS Bali, cite one single case where a court ordered a man to continue working past normal retirement age.

 

[Bali Hai]

BS Bali, cite one single case where a court ordered a man to continue working past normal retirement age.

I can't cite a single case where a court ordered a man to work at all.

But I can cite you many many cases where the court ordered alimony past normal retirement age.

 

[LdiJ]

I can't cite a single case where a court ordered a man to work at all.

But I can cite you many many cases where the court ordered alimony past normal retirement age.

But not a case where a judge made an original alimony order AFTER retirement age, unless that alimony was to come from retirement income, and be divided accordingly.

 

[Bali Hai]

But not a case where a judge made an original alimony order AFTER retirement age, unless that alimony was to come from retirement income, and be divided accordingly.

Yeap, and it's time to get a job again or starve! But don't make too much money or the court will take it away from you and give it to her!!

 

[Bali Hai]

But not a case where a judge made an original alimony order AFTER retirement age, unless that alimony was to come from retirement income, and be divided accordingly.

And when the alimony is ordered is irrelevant. It forces men to work past retirement age!!

 

[wileybunch]

Keep in mind that the system women set up, let her get away with it!

I am a woman and have 4 sisters. We've all clearly lost out, as has our Mom, on setting up this system that keeps persecuting you.

Just remember your angst is with issues you've had with a woman YOU chose. I suppose you want to blame that on women nationwide, but I know *I* wasn't there when you chose your mate, I didn't sleep with her, and I didn't make babies with her so you can quit blaming anyone that wasn't part of that. You know, you can forgive yourself for making the mistakes you made so you don't have to be so angry at women everywhere for the rest of your life.

 

[Bali Hai]

I am a woman and have 4 sisters. We've all clearly lost out, as has our Mom, on setting up this system that keeps persecuting you.

Just remember your angst is with issues you've had with a woman YOU chose. I suppose you want to blame that on women nationwide, but I know *I* wasn't there when you chose your mate, I didn't sleep with her, and I didn't make babies with her so you can quit blaming anyone that wasn't part of that. You know, you can forgive yourself for making the mistakes you made so you don't have to be so angry at women everywhere for the rest of your life.

Your efforts to make a victim of this lousy system into someone "who should have known better" is falling on deaf ears.

Would you tell that little old lady who got mugged on that poorly lit street at midnight that it was HER fault?? Hell no, so don't try that sh!t with me!

And don't urinate on my foot and try to convince me it's raining!!

 

[wileybunch]

Your efforts to make a victim of this lousy system into someone "who should have known better" is falling on deaf ears.

Would you tell that little old lady who got mugged on that poorly lit street at midnight that it was HER fault?? Hell no, so don't try that sh!t with me!

And don't urinate on my foot and try to convince me it's raining!!

Leave the poor old mugged lady alone! She didn't sleep with and marry your ex wife, either!