Summer Visitation Question

[Inquiry123]

Checklist...

Items To Decide While Child In Mother's Custody:
1. Child WILL spend entire summer eating brocolli.
2. Child WILL not watch TV during entire summer.
3. Child WILL go to BOTH sessions of Summer School.
4. Child WILL NOT wear shorts during entire summer.
5. Child WILL NOT have dessert during entire summer.
Note: If Father does not agree, too bad -- Mother made final decision while child in her custody.

j: My experience stems from multiple court appearances "clarifying" court orders with another Mother. Yes..."mandatory" summer school items were one of the topics "clarified".

 

[justlilolme]

Haiku

its pretty clear this is a summer enrichment program, and not really "summer school" that was mandatory to keep the child from failing.

Really? What gave you that impression? And what part of the current court order would make that fact relevant at all?

It seems to me that the only question asked (by me) is WHO has the right to make the decision based on the current court order and why.

Also summer enrichment programs are not part of the legal school year. (The legal school year is how many days school must be in attendance by state law-180 days? this will fluctuate slightly every year due to things like snow days,and that is likely what the family court goes by.)

Is that a legal interpreation? What knowlege or experience are you basing that information on? Just so that I can be perfectly clear on which advice is merly opinion and what advice has legal merit!

If thats the case, mom likely won't have a leg to stand on if dad were to take her to court for contempt of visitation, for taking away his time, if she insists on enrolling the kid, unles she uses it as HER summer visitation time per his agreement.

And once again, is that a legal interpreation? What knowlege or experience are you basing that information on?

Again I just want to be perfectly clear on which advice is merly opinion and what advice has legal merit! But of course, all advice and opinions are appreciated!

 

[justlilolme]

My experience stems from multiple court appearances "clarifying" court orders with another Mother. Yes..."mandatory" summer school items were one of the topics "clarified".

Really? I am interested in what the issue was in your case and what the decision of the Judge was. What were both sides of the legal argument? That could be very enlightening information. You are in a different state entirely which probably wont help me much in my state per say, but there is never such a thing as too much information or insight! Please enlighten me with your experience and knowlege, that is what I would really like to hear about.

So do you have to practice to be such a sarcastic pain in the ass, or does it just come naturally to you? Personally, I am an inquisitive pain in the ass by nature!

 

[LdiJ]

LdiJ

Thank you for your input.

Have you ever been through this before? Do you have any opinion to offer on the legal interpretation of the order?



Inquiry123

Is that a legal interpretation that you are offering? What information or experience, exactly, is it that you are basing those statements on?

Again ....

Is there anyone else that has ever had this problem that can share thier opinions and experiences?

Is there anyone that is an attorney or that through their own legal experiences can tell me what the actual legal interpretation is?

I have to agree with everyone else regarding the legal interpretation of the order. You order doesn't permit you to make decisions about what goes on during his parenting time. I realize that the decision has to be made by May 6, and May 6 falls during your parenting time.....but the decision that needs to be made needs to be made regarding HIS parenting time...Therefore, if is a completely voluntary situation then its his decision to make.

HOWEVER...the real question is whether or not the child really NEEDS the summer school...or whether the school is requiring summer school in order for the child to advance to the next grade. If you can adequately demonstrate that summer school is truly needed (and ignore alot of the comments that you are recieving regarding summer school) then a judge would expect dad to cooperate one way or the other.

That could mean you turning the child over to dad as soon as school lets out...then taking the child back for the period of summer school, and then dad keeping the child up until school starts (in other words your four weeks are the weeks that the child is in summer school this year).

Or it could mean dad giving up a week or two but not the whole time.

Or it could mean the child going to summer school in dad's community.

Or it could mean dad arranging private tutoring in his community.

The point is that there are options. Its not just two choices...summer school and dad gives up his time or no summer school and dad takes his full time.

So, if the school and your child's teacher has made it clear that the child really NEEDS this (and again, ignore what everybody else says about summer school because kids really do get a LOT more individual time and attention in summer school)...then start getting creative and negotiate with dad.....or make an emergency petition to get a ruling from the judge on this before May 6th....but you better be prepared to demonstrate to the judge that you are not asking just dad to sacrifice....you had better be prepared to demonstrate that you are willing to sacrifice too.

 

[justlilolme]

LdiJ

Thank you so very much for a very honest, informative, respectful, and clear response. I appreciate it very much and you put it in such a way that I much more clearly understand not only what you are saying, but also what others have been trying to tell me as well.

Just out of curiosity are you an attorney? If you are not you would probably make a great one!

 

[LdiJ]

Thank you so very much for a very honest, informative, respectful, and clear response. I appreciate it very much and you put it in such a way that I much more clearly understand not only what you are saying, but also what others have been trying to tell me as well.

Just out of curiosity are you an attorney? If you are not you would probably make a great one!

No, I am not an attorney...I have some legal education in some aspects of law (business, tax..I am an accountant...lol) but I am just an educated "layperson" when it comes to family law.

I am glad that I was able to help.

 

[Ron1347]

Like I said...I personally spoke with a long time practicing Family Law Attorney (however, he is Michigan). He has adamantly stated that, 'NCP's visitation schedule outweighs and overrules, the Summer School issue, no matter what'! Unless of course, as has been said, you take the issue before a judge and can convince the judge otherwise, but, highly unlikely under any circumstance. Just passing along what a long standing professional in that field has told me.

 

[stealth2]

I NEVER implied that the child had academic failings but simply some poor grades, which IMHO, there is a difference. My idea of poor grades varies from each of my children, based on thier individual abilities; and has nothing to do with what the school considers failing or passing.

This is the only place in this thread - that I saw - where the reasons for summer school were addressed. The child is apparently NOT failing, the child is apparently NOT in danger of being held back. Summer school appears to be something that is Mom's choice. Choosing summer school will infringe on Dad's ability to spend time with the child during the summer. Not cool at all. If child is not meeting Mom's expectations (and that's what it sounds like) - MOM needs to do something about it during the school year rather than penalize Dad and the kid during the summer.

While a judge may give serious consideration to the need for summer school were the child failing or in danger of being held back, it is unlikely when it's a voluntary situation.

 

[haiku]

Haiku

Quote:
Originally Posted by haiku
its pretty clear this is a summer enrichment program, and not really "summer school" that was mandatory to keep the child from failing.


Quote: by justlilolme
Really? What gave you that impression?

***Is the website posted, the summer school in question? barring the schools demand that he child attend or fail, the program looks completely voluntary.***

Quote: by justlilolme
And what part of the current court order would make that fact relevant at all?

***The fact that mom cannot dictate what dad does on his time, maybe?****

quote: by justlilolme
It seems to me that the only question asked (by me) is WHO has the right to make the decision based on the current court order and why.

***Yes, the decision for summer school must be made during the mothers time, but, the summer school session is during dads court ordered time. Its the same thing as if you signed the kid up for little league on dads weekends, dad would not be required to take the kid, unless it was specific to the court order that dad take the kid to extra curriculars. ****


Quote:
Originally Posted by haiku
Also summer enrichment programs are not part of the legal school year. (The legal school year is how many days school must be in attendance by state law-180 days? this will fluctuate slightly every year due to things like snow days,and that is likely what the family court goes by.)


QUote: by justlilolme
Is that a legal interpreation? What knowlege or experience are you basing that information on? Just so that I can be perfectly clear on which advice is merly opinion and what advice has legal merit!

***all schools have to run by a legal calendar defining how many days they must be in session, the courts are aware of this when they outline vacation time around a school schedule. found missouri's schedule here, at thier school board website. there is no mention of "summer school" making up thier legal school year.****


Quote:
Originally Posted by haiku
If thats the case, mom likely won't have a leg to stand on if dad were to take her to court for contempt of visitation, for taking away his time, if she insists on enrolling the kid, unles she uses it as HER summer visitation time per his agreement.


Quote:by justlilolme
And once again, is that a legal interpreation? What knowlege or experience are you basing that information on?

Again I just want to be perfectly clear on which advice is merly opinion and what advice has legal merit! But of course, all advice and opinions are appreciated!

***I am not a legal professional, but I have 10 years hands on experience and research, in 4 states, as a CP, and NCP,with family law issues. this is a "free advice" site you get what you pay for....there are lawyers here, but most of the advice will come from people who have 'been there and done that" with a few yahoos thrown in. ***

***without the childs educators to back up your decision,(the point being, your case will be that much stronger were dad to deny this request) sending the child to this summer program amounts to signing her up for summer camp, or going off to disneyworld, on dads time.***

 

[casa]

What is the name of your state? Missouri

I have a question regarding summer visitation. There is a current court order that awards both mother and father joint legal and physical custody. Child resides most of the year with mother and has specified visitation with father.

Summer Custody and Visitation reads ...(Father's Name) shall have visitation with the minor child during her summer vacation from school. The visitation period shall not begin sooner than one week following the end of school for the summer vacation and end not later than one week prior to the start of school in the Fall. (Mother's Name) shall have two weeks of uninterrupted visitation during the child's summer vacation from school. (Mother's Name) shall notify (Father's Name) in writing of her two week summer visitation period by May 1 of each year. If (Mother's Name) exercises her two week period in conjunction with her one week after school is let out for the summer or in conjunction with her one week before school starts in the Fall, (Father's Name) shall be responsible for providing all transportation and all transportation costs of the child. If (Mother's Name) exercises her two week period during the middle of (Father's Name) summer custody, then (Mother's Name) shall be responsible for providing all transportation and all transportation costs of the child.

Advancement of Health, Education and Growth reads ... Both shall earnestly advance the child's social and academic needs, goals and commitments, even though they may not always agree on how best to acheive these objectives. They shall regularly confer with one another when making decisions affecting the child, to the end that each of them shall have a serious voice on issues regarding training, education, growth and development. Areas in which they shall confer include, but are not limited to, choice of school, college, summer camp, special tutoring, music, art, dance, and other cultural lessons, participation in athletics and other extracurricular activities, psychological or psychiatric treatment and counseling, doctors, surgeons, and in all other material areas affecting the child's health, education and welfare. They may from time-to-time disagree on some matters. If they do, final decisions affecting the child shall be made by the parent who then has psysical custody of the child. Each parent shall notify the other as soon as possible of any activity, such as a school conferences or program, where parents are invited to attend. The presence of both parents at these functions shall be encouraged and welcomed.

So now for my question ...
The last day of school for the 'regular' school year is May 20. Mom wants to put the child in summer school due to her grades and struggles throughout the school year. The decision regarding summer school needs to be made by May 6 so the paperwork can be turned into the school.

Summer school runs from June 6 through July 1. Dad objects to summer school because it greatly decreases his summer visitation time.

In accordance with the court order isn't mom entitled to make the final decision regarding summer school, regardless of dad disagreeing?

In accordance with the court order wouldn't the child's 'summer vacation' start on July 1, 2005 if she is enrolled in summer school?

Issues a judge would more than likely consider:

1.) Is summer school being recommended by the school? ie; If he does not go, he will not continue to the next grade? If not, then the CP is clearly infringing on the NCPs parenting time.

2.) If the CP is so concerned about the child's education~ Where have they been ALL YEAR LONG?! No tutors, No help getting work/homework done all through the year? Hmmmmm The CP pushing the child's 'problems' academically will only demonstrate to the court the CPs failure in this area.

3.) The visitation order is pretty easy to comprehend (*IMO*) The child has visitation with the NCP which has to start prior to the end of the week after school ends. The child is to return to the mother before the beginning of the last week prior to school starting.

 

[stealth2]

An additional thought.... I've also had problems with homework/projects not being completed on Dad's time. Every teacher I have spoken to has made accommodations to allow both of the kids to hand in such work a day or two late. The only time they've been penalized is if it was something assigned well in advance of the weekend away and they procrastinated. Which is as it should be. I make sure that ANYTHING assigned before the day they leave is complete before they go.

 

[Zephyr]

has mom asked dad how he would be willing to accomodate the child taking some classes in the summer? this may be something that he is more than willing to cooperate about if he were aware of it...

 

[justlilolme]

Haiku

***Is the website posted, the summer school in question? barring the schools demand that he child attend or fail, the program looks completely voluntary.***

No, in fact that site was posted by another poster as an example!

***The fact that mom cannot dictate what dad does on his time, maybe?****

Did it ever occur to anyone that not every custodial parent is out to screw the noncustodial parent and that perhaps mom's intentions are simply the academic future of the CHILD? Everything is not always a conspiracy against dad or against the NCP!

Educational decisions ... such as summer school as well as summer camps, and extracurricular activities and such ... are VERY SPECIFICALLY adressed in the order. THAT is why the question was asked in the first place.

***Yes, the decision for summer school must be made during the mothers time, but, the summer school session is during dads court ordered time. Its the same thing as if you signed the kid up for little league on dads weekends, dad would not be required to take the kid, unless it was specific to the court order that dad take the kid to extra curriculars. ****

And this is where I disagree with the majority. The order puts no limits on the decisions but states that whoever THEN has custody of the child shall make the decision. Then, in the context of the order refers to when the decision has to be made. IMO

***all schools have to run by a legal calendar defining how many days they must be in session, the courts are aware of this when they outline vacation time around a school schedule. found missouri's schedule here, at thier school board website. there is no mention of "summer school" making up thier legal school year.****

I never asked for an interpretation of the legal school year! That one is a no-brainer! I asked for a legal interpretation of summer vacation and if summer school would be taken into consideration, as it applied to the context of the court order.

Thank you for your opinion and interpretation.

***I am not a legal professional, but I have 10 years hands on experience and research, in 4 states, as a CP, and NCP,with family law issues. this is a "free advice" site you get what you pay for....there are lawyers here, but most of the advice will come from people who have 'been there and done that" with a few yahoos thrown in. ***

***without the childs educators to back up your decision,(the point being, your case will be that much stronger were dad to deny this request) sending the child to this summer program amounts to signing her up for summer camp, or going off to disneyworld, on dads time.***

Thank you for your opinions and insight. It is very appreciated, even if you do not understand where I am coming from or agree with me. I am very capable of appreciating and accepting opinions that do not coincide with my own.

I apologize if I come off the wrong way at all, because that is not my intentions, ever. I simply like to know what people base their opinions on or where they get their information so that I know how much merit it holds. Often times experience speaks volumes more than book knowledge.

Stealth2

This is the only place in this thread - that I saw - where the reasons for summer school were addressed. The child is apparently NOT failing, the child is apparently NOT in danger of being held back. Summer school appears to be something that is Mom's choice. Choosing summer school will infringe on Dad's ability to spend time with the child during the summer. Not cool at all. If child is not meeting Mom's expectations (and that's what it sounds like) - MOM needs to do something about it during the school year rather than penalize Dad and the kid during the summer.

While a judge may give serious consideration to the need for summer school were the child failing or in danger of being held back, it is unlikely when it's a voluntary situation.

Thank you so much for your input. I did not address the needs for summer school for a couple of different reasons ... the first reason being that when I initially posted my question I did not see the relevance. I do, now, understand why other's feel it is relevant; however, I still tend to disagree and think of it more as a legal semantics issue of who has the authority to make the decision and not a matter of why the summer school is wanted.

Simply put, (and this is the other reason that I did not address the issue), most parents have different parenting styles, different things that they hold in higher regard than other things, and different temperaments. Something that seems life or death to me in regards to my children may seem trivial to you in regards to your children and vice versa. I don't feel the need to try to explain or defend myself to you, or to anyone else, because I don't have to. The only person that I have to convince, if it comes to that point, is the Judge that hears the case.

As much as we would like to, no matter how good a parent is, parents simply cannot always prevent every cavity, every bruise, or every slipping grade. Just because the child had a couple of poor grades it does not automatically mean that mom is a failure as a parent or that mom didn't do her part in ensuring the academic success of her child.

Casa

Issues a judge would more than likely consider:

1.) Is summer school being recommended by the school? ie; If he does not go, he will not continue to the next grade? If not, then the CP is clearly infringing on the NCPs parenting time.

2.) If the CP is so concerned about the child's education~ Where have they been ALL YEAR LONG?! No tutors, No help getting work/homework done all through the year? Hmmmmm The CP pushing the child's 'problems' academically will only demonstrate to the court the CPs failure in this area.

3.) The visitation order is pretty easy to comprehend (*IMO*) The child has visitation with the NCP which has to start prior to the end of the week after school ends. The child is to return to the mother before the beginning of the last week prior to school starting.

Thank you for your opinion and input. I am glad that most Judges I have encountered do not simply base a parents perfomance or child-rearing abilities on a couple of slipping grades, as you seem to. By your standards any parent who has ever had a child with bad grades or a cavity for that matter would be considered a failure. Maybe we should shoot them all on sight, ya think? Because, my goodness, where the hell have they been ALL YEAR LONG, if something like that happened, right?

 

[Zephyr]

has mom asked dad how he would be willing to accomodate the child taking some classes in the summer? this may be something that he is more than willing to cooperate about if he were aware of it...

this whole issue might be a non issue if dad were involved in the conversation....

 

[stealth2]

Simply put, (and this is the other reason that I did not address the issue), most parents have different parenting styles, different things that they hold in higher regard than other things, and different temperaments. Something that seems life or death to me in regards to my children may seem trivial to you in regards to your children and vice versa. I don't feel the need to try to explain or defend myself to you, or to anyone else, because I don't have to. The only person that I have to convince, if it comes to that point, is the Judge that hears the case.

As much as we would like to, no matter how good a parent is, parents simply cannot always prevent every cavity, every bruise, or every slipping grade. Just because the child had a couple of poor grades it does not automatically mean that mom is a failure as a parent or that mom didn't do her part in ensuring the academic success of her child.

However, the child's grades apparently slipped on.... *gasp*.... YOUR time. Guess what?!?! YOU are responsible for it. BTDT. My kid's grades slipped earlier this year - who do you suppose I held responsible for getting the grade up? Not Dad. The kid. And me.

You do not get to now decide that, since kiddo dropped the ball (as did Mommy), Dad loses half of his summer visitation. I would love for you to take this to court. Please do.