The art of resolving alienation?

[wileybunch]

What is the name of your state? Nevada

My husband's motion for contempt against his ex (first time filing contempt) was heard last week and judge told his ex he expected to find her in contempt if he held an evidentiary hearing. My husband's attorney said they would be willing to waive that hearing if she would comply with the court order and a make up visit schedule and other details to which she agreed because the judge made it clear if she was found in contempt, she would go to jail. Her attorney reminded the judge she had a counter motion to amend visitation from 2 weekends/month and every Tuesday night to just Tuesday nights if the kids feel like coming. The judge was very angry and said he'd set the evidentiary hearing then and told the ex he expected she would be found in contempt so be prepared to go to jail that day. They then dropped their motion to modify visitation.

My husband requested a make up visit for this weekend and the first half was OK until Saturday night when his daughter started to act sulky and withdrawn and long story short her mother did not send her prepared to spend the night again like she had been doing earlier this year before she cut off the visits completely.

My husband knows the judge will follow through with jail time for contempt. He's just black/white -- either you are following the order or you are not. If you think you have grounds to change it for the future, you have to present them to the court, but she agrees there is no reason she can't send the kids for the court-ordered visits. That part of it is good.

The problem is his ex lies to the kids CONSTANTLY about things with regard to their dad. And, she has a gag order on them so they will not talk about their feelings, they just clam up and are stubborn. His 12 year old told him this weekend, "You’re only doing this because you’re mad at Mom" and “Do you think I’m stupid? I know what’s going on.” When he asked, “What do you mean?” she said, “You know with the court thing.” My husband told her, "I’m just trying to have my visits with you." Not coincidentally, his ex also said this weekend, "“You’re only doing this because you’re mad at C (an older adult daughter) and I."

My husband is trying to track down a counselor he's used before (he's moved offices), but am wondering what creative ways others may know of to stop the contempt as in the contemptuous things the mother is saying and doing to make the kids despise their father. She can never be fair or accurate with regard to my husband. He loves his kids and has stuck through so much. She will never stop her alienating, but he is hoping there are creative ideas out there to make her take ownership in seeing the relationship improve. He's read things like having the mother write an apology to him and to the kids for the things she's done and showing support for him being a part of their lives, but his attorney thought that was a dumb idea.

Any ideas?

 

[redheadsrock]

go for it!

What is the name of your state? Nevada

My husband's motion for contempt against his ex (first time filing contempt) was heard last week and judge told his ex he expected to find her in contempt if he held an evidentiary hearing. My husband's attorney said they would be willing to waive that hearing if she would comply with the court order and a make up visit schedule and other details to which she agreed because the judge made it clear if she was found in contempt, she would go to jail. Her attorney reminded the judge she had a counter motion to amend visitation from 2 weekends/month and every Tuesday night to just Tuesday nights if the kids feel like coming. The judge was very angry and said he'd set the evidentiary hearing then and told the ex he expected she would be found in contempt so be prepared to go to jail that day. They then dropped their motion to modify visitation.

My husband requested a make up visit for this weekend and the first half was OK until Saturday night when his daughter started to act sulky and withdrawn and long story short her mother did not send her prepared to spend the night again like she had been doing earlier this year before she cut off the visits completely.

My husband knows the judge will follow through with jail time for contempt. He's just black/white -- either you are following the order or you are not. If you think you have grounds to change it for the future, you have to present them to the court, but she agrees there is no reason she can't send the kids for the court-ordered visits. That part of it is good.

The problem is his ex lies to the kids CONSTANTLY about things with regard to their dad. And, she has a gag order on them so they will not talk about their feelings, they just clam up and are stubborn. His 12 year old told him this weekend, "You’re only doing this because you’re mad at Mom" and “Do you think I’m stupid? I know what’s going on.” When he asked, “What do you mean?” she said, “You know with the court thing.” My husband told her, "I’m just trying to have my visits with you." Not coincidentally, his ex also said this weekend, "“You’re only doing this because you’re mad at C (an older adult daughter) and I."

My husband is trying to track down a counselor he's used before (he's moved offices), but am wondering what creative ways others may know of to stop the contempt as in the contemptuous things the mother is saying and doing to make the kids despise their father. She can never be fair or accurate with regard to my husband. He loves his kids and has stuck through so much. She will never stop her alienating, but he is hoping there are creative ideas out there to make her take ownership in seeing the relationship improve. He's read things like having the mother write an apology to him and to the kids for the things she's done and showing support for him being a part of their lives, but his attorney thought that was a dumb idea.

Any ideas?

is there anything in the court orders that says she can't bad-mouth dad to the kids? Ok then FILE FOR CONTEMPT - REQUEST THE HEARING THE JUDGE SAID WILL HAPPEN - Definately go with the counselor - & request that the counselors notes be given to your husband & used in court. Sounds like HAP (hostile aggressive parenting) to me & is NOT good for the kid(s) they need to be shown another way of life - the way of life it sounds like your husband wants to give them! A change of custody sounds warranted, and supervised visits for mom until she can prove that she will not bad mouth dad. that's what I'd ask for.

I feel your pain - my husband & I get comments like that from his 6-year old... funny thing is that mom will say something to us on the phone then his daughter will come over & say the exact same thing - verbatim... hummmm brainwashing is the term that comes to mind.

good luck sister!

 

[peppier]

Just repeating what I've read.

There have been recommendations on this board for a book called "Divorce Poison" I haven't received my copy but it sounds like it may have some good advice.

 

[wileybunch]

is there anything in the court orders that says she can't bad-mouth dad to the kids? Ok then FILE FOR CONTEMPT - REQUEST THE HEARING THE JUDGE SAID WILL HAPPEN - Definately go with the counselor - & request that the counselors notes be given to your husband & used in court. Sounds like HAP (hostile aggressive parenting) to me & is NOT good for the kid(s) they need to be shown another way of life - the way of life it sounds like your husband wants to give them! A change of custody sounds warranted, and supervised visits for mom until she can prove that she will not bad mouth dad. that's what I'd ask for.

I feel your pain - my husband & I get comments like that from his 6-year old... funny thing is that mom will say something to us on the phone then his daughter will come over & say the exact same thing - verbatim... hummmm brainwashing is the term that comes to mind.

good luck sister!

All that makes sense to me.
We have an appt with a family counselor I mentioned on Fri eve. The first visit will be w/o the daughter so that we can bring him up to speed. I wasn't sure about the counseling and turning over notes for court. I was wondering if/how that works. I think it sounds like a good idea to have custody changed until mom can stop badmouthing. My husband's supposed to have "one of the best" attorneys and he has not suggested that. And, in chatting after the hearing, he made a point of saying parental alienation syndrome is not a real mental diagnosis. We hadn't use those terms w/ him in the discussion and the way he brought it up took my husband and I by surprise. We don't care if it's a mental diagnosis or not, the behaviors that are outlined as PAS are what we are dealing with. This isn't just a parent that badmouths the other parent, it's much more entrenched than that and shows no signs of relenting.

The thing with my husband is he's not someone to look for contention, conflict, dirty games, etc. His ex totally has the upper hand in dirty battle b/c she'd be the one to NOT agree to not split a child in two.

Have you been to court over these sorts of issues?

 

[wileybunch]

There have been recommendations on this board for a book called "Divorce Poison" I haven't received my copy but it sounds like it may have some good advice.

I hadn't heard of that before, but in Googling it, it sounds like it would be very useful. Thank you!

 

[Ann Marie]

Court ordered parenting classes or mediation

Ask your attorney if you can motion to have the court intervene in the child's best interest by ordering parenting classes for both parents. Also, the concept of post divorce cooperative parenting has not caught on yet in part because 1. deep seeded wounds from breakup of marriage make it difficult for people to be rational and 2. in this society, it is not considered 'normal' for divorced couples to get along. You may want to try taking a one down position with your ex-wife. By this I mean that you could make a conscious effort to validate her feelings (even if the are unjust), and ask her what you can do or stop doing to be able to have a more cooperative parenting relationship. Parent Alienation Syndrome is a widespread societal problem that most people can see in others but not themselves. Also, beware of falling into the trap of perpetuating the dysfunction. If your son hears you say there is something wrong with his mother because she is doing these bad things, this will be damaging also. I find that when I am at a loss for reason in a situation where someone seems unreasonable it helps if I focus on finding the present moment answer to 'What can I do right now to make this situation better?' - sometimes walking away quietly and simmering down is the best course of action.

 

[WetNap]

Things can get better

This isn't just a parent that badmouths the other parent, it's much more entrenched than that and shows no signs of relenting.

Sometimes, you have to fight fire with fire. A good therapist can work with you as a firefighter. They won't just squirt a garden hose at the top of the flames...the good ones have the communication techniques to get to the base of the fire and knock it down.

After years of 'taking the high road' and keeping my mouth shut in a situation similar to yours, the first question the therapist asked my kids was, "What kind of relationship do you want with your father?" He already knew the answer to that question -- "None...we don't want to see him anymore!" Mom had pulled every trick in the book -- a dozen trips to court, CPS, TRO's, lies, lies, lies. My kids were completely 'brainwashed'. The court-ordered therapist has really made a difference. And I'm sure it also helped when the judge told mom that if things didn't change immediately, she'd be in jail and the kids would be living with me full time. Mom was also ordered into counseling.

Another book I'd recommend is "Mom's House, Dad's House" which can help you model appropriate behavior. My kids have actually thanked me for keeping my mouth shut and not making them feel like they had to choose. I feel like I've been through Hell. I've survived. Good luck to your family.

 

[wileybunch]

Ask your attorney if you can motion to have the court intervene in the child's best interest by ordering parenting classes for both parents. Also, the concept of post divorce cooperative parenting has not caught on yet in part because 1. deep seeded wounds from breakup of marriage make it difficult for people to be rational and 2. in this society, it is not considered 'normal' for divorced couples to get along. You may want to try taking a one down position with your ex-wife. By this I mean that you could make a conscious effort to validate her feelings (even if the are unjust), and ask her what you can do or stop doing to be able to have a more cooperative parenting relationship. Parent Alienation Syndrome is a widespread societal problem that most people can see in others but not themselves. Also, beware of falling into the trap of perpetuating the dysfunction. If your son hears you say there is something wrong with his mother because she is doing these bad things, this will be damaging also. I find that when I am at a loss for reason in a situation where someone seems unreasonable it helps if I focus on finding the present moment answer to 'What can I do right now to make this situation better?' - sometimes walking away quietly and simmering down is the best course of action.

They have been through mediation twice and parenting classes once (every divorcing couple goes through the parenting class). I think it's a good point to examine what one is doing that can make a situation better or worse and I credit my husband a lot in that regard. It's been part of his "downfall" that he hasn't pulled the children in two as that also included not going back to court sooner.

Tonight my husband had a phone conversation with his ex wife where she actually seemed like she might try to cooperate now. She is facing jail time if she doesn't so that is a great motivator, but of course my husband's hoping for more than lip service to a court order so that the children can settle in and not deal with their mom's jealousies and rages any more.

 

[wileybunch]

Sometimes, you have to fight fire with fire. A good therapist can work with you as a firefighter. They won't just squirt a garden hose at the top of the flames...the good ones have the communication techniques to get to the base of the fire and knock it down.

After years of 'taking the high road' and keeping my mouth shut in a situation similar to yours, the first question the therapist asked my kids was, "What kind of relationship do you want with your father?" He already knew the answer to that question -- "None...we don't want to see him anymore!" Mom had pulled every trick in the book -- a dozen trips to court, CPS, TRO's, lies, lies, lies. My kids were completely 'brainwashed'. The court-ordered therapist has really made a difference. And I'm sure it also helped when the judge told mom that if things didn't change immediately, she'd be in jail and the kids would be living with me full time. Mom was also ordered into counseling.

Another book I'd recommend is "Mom's House, Dad's House" which can help you model appropriate behavior. My kids have actually thanked me for keeping my mouth shut and not making them feel like they had to choose. I feel like I've been through Hell. I've survived. Good luck to your family.

Whew, you have been through it! We've commented the only dirty thing she hasn't done is claim abuse of the kids, but you didn't even escape that.

We asked our attorney about Mom being ordered into counseling and he gave us a "yeah right" answer. He really thinks the judge's no nonsense policy and clear indication he's going to put ex in jail is enough. We are going to request the ex to agree to an order for this anyway as part of "working it out" because the ball's in our court to figure out how to unravel this and it's in her best interests b/c of the contempt charge still looming for her.

You are a great resource, by the way. It's very tough on fathers in situations like yours and my husband's. Glad you were able to stick it out in the long run for the kids. They are lucky to have you and I'm sure their self worth and esteem has benefited much from that.

 

[LdiJ]

I think that you have gotten good advice here....but I really want to point out something that could be important.

Since your children are older, and old enough to really form an opinion, I think its dangerous as heck for you if mom goes to jail. They are going to blame you. Depending on the level of alienation, that may cause even bigger problems in your relationship with them.

I am not saying that mom shouldn't face serious consequences, and in fact, mom probably SHOULD go to jail if that is what the judge is saying is going to happen. However, her getting seriously fined might be better, in the long run, for you.

 

[WetNap]

The Blame Game

Since your children are older, and old enough to really form an opinion, I think its dangerous as heck for you if mom goes to jail. They are going to blame you. Depending on the level of alienation, that may cause even bigger problems in your relationship with them.

Attorney's Fees: $3275 ...Filing Fees: $120 ...Process Server: $110. Mom going to jail after years of alienation: Priceless.

My kids have been told dozens of lies about money/fines. We can't go to DisneyWorld this summer because your dad didn't pay his support, again. Your dad lied to the judge and I have to pay $XXXX. Etc. The Blame Game could happen no matter what the judge orders. My therapist said that my ex going to jail might actually be the healthiest thing that could happen for my kids.

Would they be upset at first? Yes. Would they learn that there are consequences for our actions? Yep.

 

[wileybunch]

I do see the point about the kids being mad, I really do.
I also know that this situation is so bad that even if the mother went to jail and was fined, she will continue her alienating efforts. She doesn't feel remorse or think she does anything wrong. My husband thinks she's incapable of those things or feeling guilt.

We are hoping that something can be worked out, but she emailed my husband this morning and her idea of working it out includes no make up visits and still wanting to cut his weekend visits to one weekend of slightly shorter time and the other weekend cut in half to 24 hrs. She also continued with jabs (like WetNap mentioned -- "I know you don't care, but the kids' vacation was cut short b/c I had to respond to your motion" and a few other things). 2 days before returning to court and no agreement yet and that was in her offer to work things out doesn't give my husband much confidence in her willingness.

I need to add, though, that that means we will need more time before returning to court, not necessarily that we will move forward with the evidentiary hearing. One week after her not showing good faith on this past make up visit, as well, is turning out not to be enough time to iron things out.

WetNap, your ex and my husband's are twins separated at birth.

 

[escape2paradise]

Read "Divorce Poison" it will give you some great pointers on how to deal with PAS and it will tell you what not to do. I have been going through the same thing with DD. I am, however, the CP. NCP has been inconsistent to say the least in DD life, he has abandoned her for a long period of time etc.... and now that he is remarried he wants his turn to be a parent. DD is eating up X's new found interest. It was REALLY bad for about 6 months, until I figured out what was going on. I read the book and it helped us tremendously. DD is much better now, but has just started visiting with X again for daytime only visits and we are waiting to see how that affects her.

 

[casa]

All that makes sense to me.
We have an appt with a family counselor I mentioned on Fri eve. The first visit will be w/o the daughter so that we can bring him up to speed. I wasn't sure about the counseling and turning over notes for court. I was wondering if/how that works. I think it sounds like a good idea to have custody changed until mom can stop badmouthing. My husband's supposed to have "one of the best" attorneys and he has not suggested that.

That is because it's premature & Dad's attorney knows the climate of the courts.

And, in chatting after the hearing, he made a point of saying parental alienation syndrome is not a real mental diagnosis. We hadn't use those terms w/ him in the discussion and the way he brought it up took my husband and I by surprise. We don't care if it's a mental diagnosis or not, the behaviors that are outlined as PAS are what we are dealing with. This isn't just a parent that badmouths the other parent, it's much more entrenched than that and shows no signs of relenting.

PAS is controversial & it's not accepted as an actual diagnosis or legal term. Using it in court just muddies the waters. You can address the behavior & follow through with legal ramifications...instead of getting into a long, expensive debate about whether PAS does or does not exist. Your attorney is proactively steering you away from even using the term. Another smart move.

The thing with my husband is he's not someone to look for contention, conflict, dirty games, etc. His ex totally has the upper hand in dirty battle b/c she'd be the one to NOT agree to not split a child in two.

Good. Follow through with counseling. The counselor will not only help you & Dad deal with this behavior, it will document it with a professional so that the counselor's recommendation can be used in court proceedings if/when necessary.

Have you been to court over these sorts of issues?

Yes, my Narcissistic X spent enough $ to buy a nice house (here in Souther CA!) on court battles. At age 6 we had spent 80% of her lifetime(combined) in court. My X eventually lost Legal Custody status...we have public drop off/pick up...and he can't take me to court at any time in the future unless/until I become deceased or incarcerated.

Let Dad & Attorney give Mom enough rope to hang herself.

 

[escape2paradise]

Great advice from Casa. The courts don't act drastically ever. They do it little by little. They are not going to change custody from mom based on this until the court has been dealing with it for quite some time and until mom is given multiple oppurtunities to change her ways. Unfortunately for you that means playing the waiting game and allowing the X to do just as Casa says, hang themselves. My X lost his half of the summer to about two and a half weeks of daytime only visits. He has only used two of the days. Still has not complied with the court etc...I imagine we will be back in court in a couple of weeks to see about visitation during school. I can't imagine that things are going to get better for him seeing as he hasn't complied. I guess we'll see. Have patience here, though it is ohhh so hard!

Do whatever you can to gather proof. Counseling, maybe have a GAL assigned to your case etc....