Using purchased wifi time in parking lot Loitering/trespassing?

[justalayman]

But since when is someone using a laptop a security concern? It was only MADE an issue by some pesky migrant dishwasher who was trying to feel like an insider. No one else even noticed or cared.

At the bank my daughter works at, they have installed a WI-Fi and bluetooth jamming system. Apparently they see it as a security concern.

maybe you are taking notes about business timing for your terrorist buddies to come blow the mall up or rob the money trucks.

Dang guy, if you cannot see the problem with this, you are really dense.

On top of all of it, it is private property and they can do just about anything they want as far as restricting what you do and when you do it on their property.

If you don;t like it, go elsewhere.

just to answer the WIFI question; it isn;t being sold as the main intent. It is sold so you will sit in Starbucks and drink their overpriced coffee while you lose track of time on the internet. I doubt Starbucks would allow you to sit around their coffee house if you aren;t drinking their coffee. A business owner can apply rules such as that if they wish.

and to address the "at the mall" statement. Wi-Fi, like all electromagnetic forms or energy, are blocked by certain materials. It is not important to block the energy in this situation so the fact it may permeate the entire mall and the parking lot, it makes no difference. The mall owners'management can still control their mall.

The fact that you posted this:

I park in a one particular shady spot every day that picks up the signal the best.

shows that the signal was not neccessarily intended to be used outside of Starbucks. If that is the case (which I truly think it is) that would be like you buying a burger from MacDonalds and then going over to BK to use their tables because you like them better.


BUT on top of anything I have posted, you stated the security did not ask you to leave but merely investigated. Until required to leave, this is a moot discussion. When/if you are asked to leave, you do have the answers though. They have the right to do so without court intervention and you refusing to leave could result in your citation or arrest.

Rather than making such a big issue about this, why don;t you speak with the mall management and see what it would take for them to be accepting of you setting there diddling with whatever while you eat.

 

[rdrake]

Well as someone else has pointed out... I have entered into a contract, and as part of that contract, for my convenience, the signal reaches out to the lot so that I have the option to use my laptop in my car if I choose. If someone feels that this behaviour is suspicious, they are more then welcome to investigate. However, once it is discovered that I have a service contract and I am within my rights to be using that service contract, the issue is no longer between management and myself, it then falls between management and the proprieter who sold me that contract/service.

As I said, I am just interested in hearing people's perspectives on this, I am not making any absolute statements.

 

[justalayman]

=rdrake;2118205]Well as someone else has pointed out... I have entered into a contract, and as part of that contract, for my convenience, the signal reaches out to the lot so that I have the option to use my laptop in my car if I choose.

You are a f'n moron. Starbucks, or now, Barnes and Noble does not have any say about what happens in the parking lot. I don't care what you bought at those stores, once you leave those stores, the mall management controls what you can and cannot do, PERIOD. Those stores cannot enter into a contract to allow you to use another parties property they do not control. Get it through your head. You have no rights the mall does not allot to you.

If someone feels that this behaviour is suspicious, they are more then welcome to investigate.

and they have and you are bitching about it.

However, once it is discovered that I have a service contract and I am within my rights to be using that service contract, the issue is no longer between management and myself, it then falls between management and the proprieter who sold me that contract/service.

You are wrong. It is between you and the mall once you leave the premises of the store.

 

[Peligroso27]

Well as someone else has pointed out... I have entered into a contract, and as part of that contract, for my convenience, the signal reaches out to the lot so that I have the option to use my laptop in my car if I choose. If someone feels that this behaviour is suspicious, they are more then welcome to investigate. However, once it is discovered that I have a service contract and I am within my rights to be using that service contract, the issue is no longer between management and myself, it then falls between management and the proprieter who sold me that contract/service.

As I said, I am just interested in hearing people's perspectives on this, I am not making any absolute statements.

You may want to read the terms of service associated with your "contract" or find out exactly who that "contract" is with. Did you come to this site to validate your uneducated opinion or receive unbiased legal advice? A contract does not involve the third party, the contract is between you and whatever agent provided you with the service. If you want to argue further that you are allowed to use that in your car simply because the signal reaches to the parking lot, you need to post the terms of service. If the owners of the establishment have told you they do not wish you to sit in your car in the parking lot, they have the right to do that. The next step is for the management to contact law enforcement and you will be served on the spot with a trespass warning. Please come back to this site after that happens to learn more about that process.

 

[rdrake]

Yes, talking it over with the management would be a good idea, but I don't really think it will solve the underlying issue.

I am just throwing this out there for legal argument.

This is, as I believe, what the issue actually is:

Someone saw me at the same time each day, in my car using my computer. They decided to tell security, because they felt that this was a possible security concern. I can understand this. I'm sure if the person knew me they would know that there is nothing to worry about. But being that they don't know me, maybe it is a security concern. Is it?
What about a customer who gets take out food each day and eats it in his car? Just because an employee sees him there each day, does that mean that THAT person is a secuirty concern? Say the guy whips out an ipod... does THAT make it a concern? I'm sure if he pulled out a bazooka, there would be cause for alarm.

If I approach management... how could their approval ok my being there? What about insureance and liablity issues? They cannot 'ok' or 'not ok' someone patronizing an establishment. They have to go within the law. Either the person is a customer or the person is loitering.

No, the only thing that is going to ok my being there or not is whether I am entitled by law to be there, i.e. because I have purchased a service contract.

Considerng that the only place you are able to use that WI-FI service is within that immediate area, seems to me that if they don't want people using it they shouldn't be selling it. I dont see where it says you have to use the service in a particular restaurant, and as far as I know the service is being broadcasted from barnes and nobles, not starbucks.

 

[rdrake]

Ok Hitler...err Justalayman.. I get your point..> The property management doesnt need a reason for anything and can do whatever they want. Meanwhile, back in western civilization...

I looked in the contract and there isn't anything about where you are allowed to use the service etc. With my 'uneducation" I would assume that it says something to the effect of you you are subject to the rules of whereever you are using this service.

So the rule is that you cant sit in your car and eat your food? Or you can.. but wait.. you only have 30 minutes to eat... that was in fine print in the oil droppings in the space you parked in.. next to the picture of baby Jesus. .. you should have seen it before you pulled your car in. Or no.. your ok as long as you don't have an ex girlfriend who works at one of the stores who doesnt want you there? Is that it?

I really dont care too much about the entire issue.. if I was ever asked to leave by any kind of security, I would leave right away, why would I want to be there. What I would like to know what are the laws regarding them forbidding my shop there? Sure if anyone ever asked me to leave, I would leave immediately.. But can they tell me that I can't shop there?

 

[Peligroso27]

I don't think the issue is you using the wifi access. I really believe it is you sitting in the parking lot, in your car, like a child molester everyday. To answer your question, if you were in your car doing anything besides parking or driving back to school, you would be approached. I would recommend finding somewhere different to "get stuff done" or conforming with the norms associated with frequenting that establishment.

I would recommend reviewing the terms of service associated with purchasing the service from whatever establishment is providing it. The fact remains that no matter how much money you spend at this mall, the management has the right to refuse service to you.

 

[Alex23]

Your hate speech has been reported to the FBI.

I'm not surprised they don't want you in their mall. I woudn't, either.

 

[rdrake]

Thank you for your advice Peligroso. I spent a lot of time and money installing a laptop docking station as well as a 30 Amp hour portable power supply that connects to my vehicle power supply. I very much enjoy the freedom of being able to use my computer in my car. I dont mind and sometimes do take my computer into starbucks.. but it is ususally so crowded, that I cannot find a place to sit.. this is what led me to what I did with my car. I understand what you are saying, although I disagree with 'unless you are parking or leaving you are a child molester' Hehe I see what you are saying, but with all todays gadgets and emerging technology I disagree. I understand that management can do what they want and ask me to leave at any time.

So in light of all this, can you please tell me what is the process if a police man does issue me a tresspasing warning? I dont expect that to happen, but I would like to know exactly what it means. Assuming I have not broken any laws, does that just mean that I have to leave, or does that mean that I can never go back to that mall w/o risking being arrested?

From what I've researched there is a difference between someoen who has actually broken a law and being just an 'undesirable'. Being that I know that I will never be a law breaker, but also considering that I intend to use my computer in my car, where I can avoid the crowds, I assume that I might face being considered an 'undesirable'... at least until more people begin to use their computers in their cars to avoid the crowds.

So in light of that.. if I ever do get a trespassing warning, can I continue to patronize that place, but cant use my computer in my car? Or does it mean I can never go back there at all?

 

[rdrake]

Thanks Alex I'm sure they could use a good laugh. THey are probably wondering the same thing when they use their comptuers in their cars

 

[Peligroso27]

The officer will outline the terms when he serves the warning to you, but it basically states that you are no longer allowed anywhere on that property. My statement wasn't as definitive as yours, I was merely pointing out that you give the appearance of being a child molester or stalker. The duty of care placed on the property management requires them to ensure that they can provide a safe environment for patrons.

The technological determinism you are speaking of is also plagued by the ethical lag associated with technology. California has some very strict loitering laws passed in the late nineties to combat drug trafficking. Though your actions do not violate a majority of the stipulations described in the statute, you could be considered to be acting as a look out of some sort. While you know this is not true, nobody else does. The easiest way to avoid getting arrested or served a no trespass warning is to not sit in your car anymore.

 

[cyjeff]

On a related note, there have been a serious of crimes where people sitting in parking lots were phishing the wireless POS nodes of retailers to obtain credit card numbers.

If I was a security guard and saw your set up, I would agree that you look like a pro. And I would boot you to the curb as well.

I would be very careful in my little "I have rights" hissy fit. If the DA decides to get nasty and make sure that your starbucks signal can be reached in your closed car but, wow, really can't find it.... you may find yourself on the hook for a lot more trouble than your little tantrum deserves.

The 802.11b/g systems that starbucks use have an effective range of around 75-150 feet.

How far were you from the Starbucks at the time? Were you parked out front of a stand alone, or were you parked outside a mall with the *$'s inside?

Because if the starbucks was inside the mall, your entire story reeks.

 

[CdwJava]

So being that I eat there daily, how exactly does this work on a day to day basis. Can they prohibit me from eating at the mall?

If they want to, sure. I doubt they would, but they could.

The security guard never actually asked me to leave, but if he did one day.. (say for example for sake of argument, I purchased lunch, took it to my car, logged on, ate etc, and after a few hours, the guard came and said that I was sitting in my car for too long and had to go..), would that mean that I just had to leave or be subject to arrest, or can they prohibit me from coming back?

They could do both. If you refused to leave, they could call the police and have you arrested. Whether they could prevent you from returning or not without a court order depends on the law in your state.

As long as I continue to make purchases aren't I welcome to continue to shop there?

It's not a free pass to stay all day if they don't want you to. As long as you stay in the mall you'd probably be okay ... I suspect you caught their attention because you were sitting in a car in a parking lot. If this was at night, it makes their actions lawful and very reasonable instead of merely lawful.

Say they called the police one day.. wouldn't my proof of purchase within a reasonable timeframe protect me from being cited for trespassing?

No. It might be a defense in court, but only if you left when you were asked. You don't get an absolute right to hang out because you bought some Mil Duds.

- Carl

 

[cyjeff]

Here, check this out...

Wireless hacking bust in Michigan

Sound like anyone you know?

Google "Warparking".

 

[CdwJava]

Well as someone else has pointed out... I have entered into a contract, and as part of that contract, for my convenience, the signal reaches out to the lot so that I have the option to use my laptop in my car if I choose. If someone feels that this behaviour is suspicious, they are more then welcome to investigate. However, once it is discovered that I have a service contract and I am within my rights to be using that service contract, the issue is no longer between management and myself, it then falls between management and the proprieter who sold me that contract/service.

As I said, I am just interested in hearing people's perspectives on this, I am not making any absolute statements.

Okay, here's the long and short of it. The property owners have an almost absolute right to permit or deny use of the property. Even if you are using something you purchased, if you are asked to leave and you refuse, you can be subject to arrest. If you feel that you have been ripped off, you can take the store to small claims court. Or, you can use the device where everyone else is using it ... which, I presume, is NOT the parking lot.

You don't have to like it, you don't even have to agree with it, but you have to comply with the request to leave or you can face the legal (criminal) ramifications of a failure to comply.

Oh, and I am very familiar with buying time from T-Mobile, AT&T, etc. at these places. But, my buying a 6 hour block (or whatever it might be) does not give me an absolute right to use the property for the time frame of the purchase. Starbucks does not have to let me hang out for the next 24 hours because I purchased a 24 hour block of access time. If I know I will have to leave in 2 hours, I can choose not to purchase the time and go home where I can get on line for free.



- Carl