visitation rights

[iamu3]

What is the name of your state? Arizona, Tucson

ok i'll try to make this as simple as possible. my girlfriend had a child with a man that she was not married to. when they split up they verbally agreed that he could take care of it better at the time but that she or her family would be able to visit it at any time. the only legal document filed that we know of is an order of paternity saying that he is the father. anyway, in the past few months or so he started making up excuses why the child could not visit. then suddenly he stopped returning phone calls from her and her family. nobody can get a hold of him. what rights does she have? what rights does this 'order of paternaty' give?? does it matter that they weren't married? also, i had heard somewhere that if say, she and i get married and i decide i want to adopt the child we could get full custody. anyway, thank in advance.

 

[Chelle0511]

What is the name of your state? Arizona, Tucson

ok i'll try to make this as simple as possible. my girlfriend had a child with a man that she was not married to. when they split up they verbally agreed that he could take care of it better at the time but that she or her family would be able to visit it at any time. the only legal document filed that we know of is an order of paternity saying that he is the father. anyway, in the past few months or so he started making up excuses why the child could not visit. then suddenly he stopped returning phone calls from her and her family. nobody can get a hold of him. what rights does she have? what rights does this 'order of paternaty' give?? does it matter that they weren't married? also, i had heard somewhere that if say, she and i get married and i decide i want to adopt the child we could get full custody. anyway, thank in advance
~Ok, first of all I'm not sure that one that would call a child 'it" deserves custody Second of all, if there is not a court agreement then she has just as many rights as the father, and can go and pick the child. BUT, what makes her think that just because she now has "you" makes her fit to now take care of this child that she turned away from in the past? I think that she has alot of thinking to do. Obviously this child is being taken care of and maybe she should petition for visitation only!

 

[nextwife]

And how long has the dad been raising their child and what in heaven's name makes you think he'd agree to have you adopt the child he is parenting?

 

[iamu3]

ok first of all i thought this was a place of professionals. i did not log in here to get some sort of lecture. i thought i could get some constructive information. first of all to chelle0511, i used the term 'it' because i did not feel that it was anybodys business whether 'the child' was a boy or a girl or a poodle or whatever. people use the term it properly to describe all kinds of people/things/etc. if it's more pleasing to you i guess everybody should say the child the child the child every time and make some long legal document. how dare you make presumptions on how much i or anybody cares for their child. obviously if i or "THE CHILD'S" mother didn't care we wouldn't be going through all the effort that we are. I have met this child and i hope you know that i love this child as if 'it' were my own. also how DARE you make comments about "what makes her think just becuase she has you makes her fit to now take care, etc etc" YOU have no right to judge her, you know nothing about her. and for your information, we didn't want custody, i made that clear that the family just wanted to be able to see the child still. that's all. screw you for saying that "she has a lot of thinking to do" and "obviously the child is being taken care of". do you know the child is being taken care of???? for your information this guy is a deadbeat and just happened to kick her out with nothing no job or anything because he was the moneymaker and now he has some junkie for a girlfriend and is believed to have started doing drugs himself thus the strange behavior and the way he's been looking last anybody saw of him. which brings me to nextwifes comment. nobody said anything about him agreeing to have me adopt. we had just thought about it because things are going downhill for them and she doesn't want her child to grow up in that environment especially if none of her VERY loving and devoted family are able to see the child and know how it's doing. and I felt that i would have no problem with adopting another man's child considering that i was adopted and had a much better life than i would have had with my own biological mother. who do you people think you are??? if anybody else would like to give CONSTRUCTIVE and helpful information that would be much appreciated. screw the rest of you. you shouldn't be here if you are just going to judge people and make them feel like crap. jerks.

 

[Chelle0511]

ok first of all i thought this was a place of professionals. i did not log in here to get some sort of lecture. i thought i could get some constructive information. first of all to chelle0511, i used the term 'it' because i did not feel that it was anybodys business whether 'the child' was a boy or a girl or a poodle or whatever. people use the term it properly to describe all kinds of people/things/etc. if it's more pleasing to you i guess everybody should say the child the child the child every time and make some long legal document. how dare you make presumptions on how much i or anybody cares for their child. obviously if i or "THE CHILD'S" mother didn't care we wouldn't be going through all the effort that we are. I have met this child and i hope you know that i love this child as if 'it' were my own. also how DARE you make comments about "what makes her think just becuase she has you makes her fit to now take care, etc etc" YOU have no right to judge her, you know nothing about her. and for your information, we didn't want custody, i made that clear that the family just wanted to be able to see the child still. that's all. screw you for saying that "she has a lot of thinking to do" and "obviously the child is being taken care of". do you know the child is being taken care of???? for your information this guy is a deadbeat and just happened to kick her out with nothing no job or anything because he was the moneymaker and now he has some junkie for a girlfriend and is believed to have started doing drugs himself thus the strange behavior and the way he's been looking last anybody saw of him. which brings me to nextwifes comment. nobody said anything about him agreeing to have me adopt. we had just thought about it because things are going downhill for them and she doesn't want her child to grow up in that environment especially if none of her VERY loving and devoted family are able to see the child and know how it's doing. and I felt that i would have no problem with adopting another man's child considering that i was adopted and had a much better life than i would have had with my own biological mother. who do you people think you are??? if anybody else would like to give CONSTRUCTIVE and helpful information that would be much appreciated. screw the rest of you. you shouldn't be here if you are just going to judge people and make them feel like crap. jerks.

~I'm done here.... not worth the time or energy. Your original post suggested adoption and custody. Then you get all crazed and start talking about drugs. Is this to make it sound more interesting? You're hopeless .... bye-bye, I have packing to do

 

[iamu3]

i apologize to everybody else for the outburst. this has been a very emotional time for my girlfriend and myself and her family. I should have just directed those people to the terms and conditions of using these forums, specifically the part on "Use of the Forums is subject to our Terms and Conditions which prohibit ABUSIVE or HARASSING messages" certain people here have made us feel very unwelcome here and i am hoping that someone else would come forward with helpful information as we have been having a hard time trying to get straight information on what exactly is her and the family's rights. everyone else seems to just address the issue according to divorce. but since they were not married there was no paperwork done for custody etc. again i apologize to everyone else and thanks in advance for any help you may have.

 

[iamu3]

again to chelle0511 if you have nothing constructive to say then go away. i will be reporting you to the admin for harassment. how dare you say that i am just making stuff up to make it sound more interresting and say that i'm hopeless. i'm beginning to feel hopeless because it doesn't seem that there is anybody that is really willing to help and not just make people feel unwelcome. i didn't say anything about all this other stuff because it was really none of your business. if i wanted to make it sound more interresting i would have gave all that info in the beginning, but again it's really none of your business. i gave enough information so that i could get the questions we had answered. i didn't think i needed to give their whole history and i thought if someone needed more info to give a better answer then they could ask and i'd give it. i really didn't think people would just start throwing judgements at me and not even give any advice. if anybody else is out there please, any ADULT help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Chelle0511]

again to chelle0511 if you have nothing constructive to say then go away. i will be reporting you to the admin for harassment. how dare you say that i am just making stuff up to make it sound more interresting and say that i'm hopeless. i'm beginning to feel hopeless because it doesn't seem that there is anybody that is really willing to help and not just make people feel unwelcome. i didn't say anything about all this other stuff because it was really none of your business. if i wanted to make it sound more interresting i would have gave all that info in the beginning, but again it's really none of your business. i gave enough information so that i could get the questions we had answered. i didn't think i needed to give their whole history and i thought if someone needed more info to give a better answer then they could ask and i'd give it. i really didn't think people would just start throwing judgements at me and not even give any advice. if anybody else is out there please, any ADULT help would be greatly appreciated.

~Anyone out there willing to tell iamu3 what he wants to hear vs. the legal advice that he does not want to hear?

 

[iamu3]

i am willing to hear legal advice from people who are serious about helping others. if you are one of them i would be glad to take you seriouly. anybody else i will assume is just some quack on here trying to give people bad advice because they obviously are not professionals and probably don't know what they are talking about. thanks again in advance and sorry you all have to wade through this junk just to find information that might help you or those of you who want to help. thanks again in advance.

 

[Chelle0511]

i am willing to hear legal advice from people who are serious about helping others. if you are one of them i would be glad to take you seriouly. anybody else i will assume is just some quack on here trying to give people bad advice because they obviously are not professionals and probably don't know what they are talking about. thanks again in advance and sorry you all have to wade through this junk just to find information that might help you or those of you who want to help. thanks again in advance.

~There are very few professionals here. Mostly people that have climbed the same hills in the same shoes. Now, legally... your g/f has just as many rights as that father if not more. If she wants the child, then go get him/her. In the meantime she needs to file for custody right away, if this is what she is seeking, or visitation if that is what she wants. But, you need to step aside and let this man continue to be this child's father. You can be all you want to your g/f, but remember this guy is the father of this child!

P.S. You and her getting married gives you no more rights than she has now.

 

[misslawli]

Actually, based on the original post, you did not give near enough info. We base our advice on the info given. Don't go jumping all over me now because this is how it is. The way that chelle0511 responded was actually quite mild and I probably would have posted something similar if that OP was all I had to go on. But since you filled in a few blanks I can make a more informed response. You may have thought that it was "none of our business", but points such as: how long has dad had the child, drug use,mom's change of circumstance to make her feel more able to take more of a stable role in the childs life... These are all important Q's that are taken into consideration and may impact the outcome. How old is the child?? The Paternity acknowledgement is a leagal document that says the signer is the leagal father. it gives him equal rights until a judge set the rights as they see fit. Until There is a court order for visitation he doesn't have to let her see the child. That's just the legality of it. ***"also, i had heard somewhere that if say, she and i get married and i decide i want to adopt the child we could get full custody. anyway, thank in advance."** As for the married and adoption thing, being married has no weight. The adoption thing.... You can only adopt if his rights are terminated. Which he will have to consent to. If she just wants to see the child tell her to file for joint custody and visitation. Then file for contempt if he keeps making excuses and goes against the court order.

 

[iamu3]

so, if she showed up on his doorstep and said "i'm here to take ___ to the park" and he said no. then what? nobody including myself want to make this a big terrible deal for the child. everybody just wants to be able to talk like normal people. we are thinking that we might want to fight for custody because she is afraid that he is a flight risk and might decide to leave the state. we are only worried about this because he suddently won't return anybodies calls and nobody knows what's going on except for this new girlfriend of his might be the problem. being jealous or something. the thing we were hearing about the marriage thing what something about in arizona, if you are filing for full custody, the courts are more likely to grant it if there is another parent to take the place. not that a stranger could take the parents place. but generally the courts want the child to have a mother and a father. i could be wrong on this. dunno. if this father is getting into drugs and whatnot then biological father or not, i would be willing to accept this child as my own if things go that way. as i said, i myself was adopted and i know my biological mother and boy am i glad i was adopted. thanks for the advice.

 

[iamu3]

misslawli: thank you for your advice. i am more than happy to fill in blanks if i am asked. very informative. i was a bit confused on one point tho, you said that the paternity acknowledgement gives him equal rights, but then you said that until there is a court order for visitation he doesn't have to let her see the child..i'm confused on how that works if they are supposed to have equal rights??

 

[misslawli]

Sorry, now that you mention it, it was bit confusing If she had custody and did not want to let hi see the child she wouldn't have to. Only if there is no court order. Basically as bad of an analogy as this is it boils down to "posession is nine tenths of the law." I know children are not posessions but until there is a formal court ordered custody arrangement that's how it is. If there is no CO then if she shows up th take the Chld to the park he doesn't have to let the kid go. But If she has a CO, he says no, he is in contempt enough refusals of visitation it real good grounds for a change of primary custody. Literally, verbal agreements are not worth the paper they are written on. She tried being nice and civil, but the next step need to be taken, because civil is getting her nowhere. I just realized that you are in AZ. Me too.
Keep in mind that if the child is older and been with the father all of his/her life it may be harder to get custody, but if she is not wanting primary custody, then she should at least file for joint and visitaion. She can get the papers at the nearest courthouse and fill them out her self.

 

[iamu3]

misslawli: ah i see. SO as it stands with just a verbal basically he doesn't have to do anything. so we need to see about getting joint custody and visitation so that way when he acts up she has some sort of recorse. thank you very much. yes i also saw that you were in arizona thank you so much for your help. good luck with all that you are trying to do.