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drz

Junior Member
What is the name of your state?What is the name of your state?North Carolina

My question is fairly simple,

Had knee surgery last August. Had CINGA insurance, facility had $100 co Pay and Surgical group had no co Pay.

After operation, I had a motorized ice pad on my knee. Doctor tells me to keep the pad on until swelling and pain subsides.

2 months later I get a bill for $450 for the Ice Pad device, not covered by my insurance. Appealed but lost.

Question - Am I responsible to pay for the device? Doctor ordered it, and I was never informed that it was not part of his bill. I feel like telling the Ice Pad company to bill the doctor since he ordered it.

If the pad was normal procedure, I should have been informed that my insurance may not cover it. For that price, I would have put an Ice Pack on my knee myself during the night.

Thanks in advance for all that reply.

Dennis
 


somarco

Member
Pretty simple response. Device was ordered for your care. You took delivery and used the product. You owe the bill.

I haven't read your contract, but my guess would be this is considered durable medical equipment and is a covered item subject to deductible and coinsurance.

On the other hand, it could be deemed "not medically necessary" since, as you state, you could have used an ice pack from CVS.

Health insurance is not a free lunch. It is your responsibility to know (or ask) what is covered, what is not.

Your health care provider is not familiar with your plan and is under no obligation to tell you what is/isn't covered.
 

drz

Junior Member
Thank you for your prompt reply.

So, if you come out of surgery and the doctor, who based on your insurance is 100% covered, applies or orders a device for your usage that costs $100,000, then you are responsible for it?

These surgeons have a good idea what the plans cover and what they do not bases on doing multiple surgeries a week for years for patients that have all kinds of insurance coverage. Shouldn't they be morally responible to inform patients of other possible costs.

Dennis.....(I know I'm crying up the wrong alley, but I'm pissed off)
 

somarco

Member
if you come out of surgery and the doctor, who based on your insurance is 100% covered, applies or orders a device for your usage that costs $100,000, then you are responsible for it?

Yes. Is there some part of this you don't understand?

These surgeons have a good idea what the plans cover and what they do not bases on doing multiple surgeries a week for years for patients that have all kinds of insurance coverage. Shouldn't they be morally responible to inform patients of other possible costs.

Your doctor has no idea what is covered, what isn't. They deal with literally hundreds of plans through a number of carriers. They dont have a copy of your policy, nor are they required to read your policy before treating you and explaining what is covered, what isn't.

Let me see if I can put this in a way you can understand.

The health insurance policy is yours, not your doctors. The policy covers you, not your doctor. Your doctor is not party to your policy, rather it is a contract between you (or your employer) and the carrier. Your doctor does not pay the premiums, they are not a named insured, they do not have a copy of your policy.

Apparently you are having difficulty understanding personal responsibility and accountability.
 

cbg

I'm a Northern Girl
For the record, durable medical equipment is covered on some plans. It is not covered on others. Evidently, on yours it is not. Your doctor had no legal obligation to know that, or to find out in advance.

If anyone had that obligation, it was you. It was your policy. Quite honestly, it was rather naive of you to assume that a piece of equipment like that would be covered under the doctor's bill. Other than an occasional free sample of a prescription, the doctor's bill rarely covers anything except the doctor's time and expertise.

No insurance policy is required to cover anything that is medically necessary regardless. If the item or service is not covered, they have no legal obligation to pay it.

You owe the bill. You have no legal grounds to avoid paying it. If you refuse to pay it, it can be sent to collect and affect your credit report. They can sue you for it if they choose to, and they will win.

Next time, confirm for yourself what is and is not covered on your policy. Don't assume someone else is going to do that for you.
 

somarco

Member
durable medical equipment is covered on some plans. It is not covered on others.

You are correct, I should have worded my response a bit differently.

I wonder if DRZ would walk into a 5 star restaurant and order from the menu without checking prices, or counting the money in his wallet? When the bill is presented, if he lacks the funds to pay I imagine he would try to blame the waiter for allowing him to order a meal he could not pay for . . .
 

drz

Junior Member
enough sarcasism, somarco.

What you fail to realize is that there was no , NO mention that I could possibly have something provided to me other than what I ordered...SURGERY to my KNEE. Why would I ask or think there was more provided over and above what my insurance covered.

When I went to the office, they stated the procedure was covered in full with my insurance. Why would I think differently.

REALLY, if the doctor placed a $5000 ice pack on my knee, without telling me about it, am I really responsibile? How about $100,000? where does it stop and the doctors's responsibility begin.

If I ordered dinner I would pay for it. I do not think of myself as a stupid person and do not appreciate being treated as such.

This forum is to provide advise to individuals who need help. If you cannot provide it without being a wise ass, then go away. We do not need your help.

D-
 

somarco

Member
the procedure was covered in full

Apparently they were correct . . . the procedure was covered in full.

The icepack was not.

if the doctor placed a $5000 ice pack on my knee, without telling me about it, am I really responsibile? How about $100,000? where does it stop and the doctors's responsibility begin.

Yes, you would be responsible for a $5k icepack or a $100,000 one.

Why is this so difficult to grasp?

Looks like singing lessons are over.
 

drz

Junior Member
Your Right.

For you the singing lessons are over.....you are now on my IGNORE LIST.

Bye Bye......Advice from you I do not need........I'll listen to a Senior Member.
 

cbg

I'm a Northern Girl
Somarco, since our friend here persists in his belief that other people have full responsibility for his affairs and he has no responsibilities at all, perhaps we should allow him the experience of learning differently.

We've given him the correct answers; our "responsibilities", if any, to this board are complete. He can either take our advice or leave it. If he takes it, fine; if he doesn't, he'll get a first hand eduction in the follies of assuming others will take responsibility for his actions.

Edited to include note to poster: I'm a senior member, but you don't seem inclined to listen to me, either.
 
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somarco

Member
We've given him the correct answers; our "responsibilities", if any, to this board are complete

I hear you loud and clear, CBG.

My closing remark about singing lessons is my way of letting this guy know I wont waste any more keystrokes on him. Momma said, never teach a pig to sing. It is a waste of your time and it annoys the pig . . .

take care,
 

drz

Junior Member
cbg....thank you.

Your replies are very professional and I thank you for them. Others, although correct advice were not.

I guess the next question is;

When you go to a surgeon that is 100% covered by your insurance, how can you protect yourself from being charged for additional items? Or is there no way to protect yourself? You may ask before hand if there are any additional items over and above their procedure charges, but if they do add anything...your stuck. Does that sound right to you?

Thanks again for your responses.....Dennis
 

cbg

I'm a Northern Girl
DRZ, the first rule of insurance law is; just because a provider is covered by your insurance does NOT mean that every single procedure he performs or item he prescribes is going to also be covered. When a provider is covered, that means HIS BILL is covered. It does NOT obligate the insurance carrier to pay for everything he suggests or does.

To protect yourself, you need to be familair with your insurance policy. It is NOT the responsibility of anyone but you to do this for you; not the providers, not your employer (if it's group insurance); not your insurance broker, not the doctor's staff. YOU AND ONLY YOU have that responsibility.

Read your insurance policy. There will be lists in there of covered and non-covered items. If an item or service is listed as excluded or non-covered, then the insurance carrier has no legal obligation to pay for it, regardless of whether the provider who performed the service or prescribed the item is a covered provider or not. Nor is it obligated to pay for it because anyone told you that the provider in question was covered. They are not required to pay for it, period. The ONLY exception to that MIGHT be if the insurance carrier themselves mistakenly told you it was covered BEFORE the service was performed or the item purchased, and you agreed to accept the service or purchase the item based SOLELY on their assurance that it was a covered benefit.

If durable medical equipment is not covered on your plan, then it is not covered no matter who prescribes it and no matter how medically necessary it is. It is not magically made coverable by virtue of the fact that a covered provider prescribed it. That is simply the way insurance works. No one is trying to pull anything on your or cheat you. You have simply misunderstood who has what responsibilities. This is second nature to medical personnel, insurance personnel, benefits personnel, and anyone else who has anything to do with this kind of thing. Quite frankly, it also is understood by a fair percentage of the general public. It would not occur to anyone to say to you, "oh, by the way, while the procedure is covered on your plan your doctor might prescribe something that isn't covered." They would assume you already knew that. As I said, that's the way insurance works.

So read that policy. Knowledge is power.
 
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lkc15507

Member
drz

Well, my answer is the same—you owe the bill—unless you get really, really lucky. I have to say that I agree with you in large part. Most facilities these days have Utilization Management Departments and knowing what your insurance will and won’t cover is precisely one function of the UMD. Not to mention that their insurance department will probably have done multiple checks for general health plan benefits. Although your original post does not state the exact reason for the denial, if it is because DME is not covered at all, the hospital would likely have had that knowledge beforehand. If it is a medical necessity issue, they would not. Now, to let their UMD back off the hook, being an overnight stay, this device was likely ordered and utilized prior to the UMD having any knowledge of it. I will also take the same shot at your payer’s UMD. I am an RN working for a payer entity and our UMD specifically asks for disclosure of any equipment such as you describe prior to its utilization. It doesn’t always happen, but we ask. Lastly, and I think pretty important, most big payers—including Medicare—consider mechanical type cold therapy devices investigational / experimental and do not cover them (will vary by type of device and payer). And that is definitely something that your provider facility and physician are going to be aware of. (Physicians most definitely have good working knowledge of covered services in general as well as knowledge of devices such as this.) I feel pretty sure that the provider would have had numerous denials on these devices before. Mechanical active/passive cold / compression therapy devices have not been proven to be any more effective than standard ice packs with compression therapy and therefore, the expense is not considered medically necessary (and I’m betting the basis of the denial—you’ll lose an experimental / investigational appeal 99% of the time). If that is the case, for all the good it will do, argue it with the provider. But, there is still no obligation for them to make a prior authorization request and they can certainly require you to pay them.

Although I routinely preach being knowledgeable of health plan benefits and being a smart user, this is one time I think that the patient was a sitting duck. (Please follow cbg's advice, but health plans are rarely going to list every specific device / service or even category that is ineligible, which would probably have been necessary in an instance such as this may have been.) Again, I do not know why the payer denied, but the provider should damn well have asked for a prior authorization because of the very status of these devices in the industry. (And, had they done that, they would have learned of the ineligibility regardless of the reason.) Why would any patient lying in a hospital bed being provided a device believed to be necessary even think to question it at that point in time? Is anyone going to refuse treatment and say “wait let me call my insurance company?” Lastly, to address the issue of a $100,000.00 device—I guarantee the provider would do a prior authorization on a device of that expense since an amount that large would not be deemed collectible from the patient. This $450.00 device would be deemed an amount collectible from the patient and not worth their time to check on. If you want to take a $20.00 or $30.00 long shot, there is always the possibility that your physician ordered you an “ice pack” and through ordering error (that’s extremely common in facilities) or even perhaps personal preference of the nurse, this thing was provided to you instead. Ask the facility to provide the physician’s order page/s of your record. Ask specifically & only for those pages to keep your cost down. If an "ice pack" was ordered tell them to stuff their $450.00. If you do get those pages and find a mechanical device was ordered, try to find out which one and then research its current status from the payer’s viewpoint before making an argument to the provider.

One more thing. Physicians and any health care providers are 100% supposed to be patient advocates—and that includes the patient’s pocketbook. In a situation where a less costly alternative exists that is just as or more effective, it should be utilized. EVERY health care provider has an ABSOLUTE ETHICAL OBLIGATION to provide cost effective care. Regardless the reason for the denial of the DME, a $2.00 ice pack with a $10.00 ACE bandage was a better alternative and Standard of Care. A physician’s or provider’s lack of being a party to the specific health plan does not relieve him of that ethical obligation. Period. It’s just too bad most facilities and providers worry much more about their own pocketbooks to effectively advocate in this area. The patient cannot be expected to know or question the medical necessity of every service or anticipate what services will be utilized beforehand. That is the provider’s responsibility to explain it thoroughly and provide treatments that are Standard of Care. The providers had the knowledge here and drz’s $450.00 cost could & should have been avoided. Drz’s frustration is understandable and I daresay that unless one is a medical professional with intimate knowledge of both treatments and health insurance plans, anyone could find himself a sitting duck when providers fail their ethical responsibility.

Good luck to you, drz. lkc15507
 
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lkc15507

Member
I realize I have just made one big assumption. I have been assuming that drz spent an overnight observation in a facility, however, the post doesn't actually say that. Since this could have been an outpatient procedure, it would of course eliminate much facility / UMD (ethical) responsibility for the equipment used. But, it does not change my opinion regarding the physician's responsibility. If the device were provided by a DME company in the home the DME company had the same ethical obgligation to check eligibility prior to providing the device. Length of use or place of use are not the primary issue. Standards of Care, medical necessity, and the providers' almost certain prior knowledge that these devices are "iffy" in the reimbursement department are.
 

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