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cbg

I'm a Northern Girl
Sorry, lkc, but in this case I cannot agree with you. With the possible exception of a clinic-style HMO I do not believe it is the responsibility of a provider to check the patient's insurance coverage and find out if the procedures or equipment they want to perform or prescribe are covered. On most plans the patient still has that responsibility.

If DME is not covered on the plan, they don't have to list each and every form of DME that could possibly exist. It's enough to state that DME is not covered.
 


You are not alone, drz. I just today got a notice from Blue Cross that they were not covering my continuous passive motion machine from a knee surgery I had in DEC. The machine was delivered the morning after surgery and I was in such pain that I welcomed anything that was gonna help me get better. Of course, I wasn't thinking of consulting my policy at that point.

Of course, there's the legal mumbo jumbo on the form but from my read of it they decided it wasn't medically necessary. I wholeheartedly disagree because it enabled me to start Physical Therapy right away and progress rapidly. There is a paragraph in the denial letter, however, that states "If your healthcare provider disagrees with this decision, they may call the peer clinical reviewer @ blah, blah, blah to discuss this decision. Your healthcare provider may also write to ask the peer clinical reviewer to reconsider this decision." Does your letter have anything like this?

Obviously, if my doctor thought it would help, he (or his wonderful insurance billing woman) would at least give it a shot with Blue Cross. It's what I plan on doing. If not, I pay the bill and am happy I have a good knee now. :)
 

somarco

Member
The appeal process exists for a reason, and you should exercise your right to challenge a denial of coverage.

Still, your insurance ID card is not a blank check where you (or your provider) can order anything on the menu and expect it to be paid.

Those days dont exist any more. Not with managed care and all that comes with it, including contractual agreements between (some) providers and the managed care networks with regard to level of care and pricing of goods & services.

Insurance premiums are claim driven. The more demand there is for services the higher claims rise. When the cost of services goes up, so do claims and premiums.

Employer sponsored health plans are a fire breathing dragon that is out of control. Employees who work for "big" companies that pay the bulk of the premium (sometimes approaching 80%) and deliver plans with minimal risk sharing create an entitlement mentality among their workers.

All too often I encounter those who have left the corporate world only to be faced with COBRA premiums in the $400 range for single coverage and $800+ for family. These same individuals were lulled into a false sense of security with $20 weekly deductions from their paycheck and $10 office visit copays.

I have actually had prospective clients tell me they cant afford to pay $1000 for COBRA but then reject a plan that is $600 LESS in monthly premium. Their reasoning is, the $40 copay that comes with my $400/month plan is too much to pay to see a doctor . . .

Health insurance is the only product where an ID card in your wallet is treated like a blank check where the owner of the card flashes it anytime they want with the expectation that everything will be paid.

Your car insurance doesn't work like that. Neither does your homeowners coverage.

When insureds take a pro-active approach to health care premiums will come down.
 
somarco said:
The appeal process exists for a reason, and you should exercise your right to challenge a denial of coverage.

Still, your insurance ID card is not a blank check where you (or your provider) can order anything on the menu and expect it to be paid.

Those days dont exist any more. Not with managed care and all that comes with it, including contractual agreements between (some) providers and the managed care networks with regard to level of care and pricing of goods & services.

Insurance premiums are claim driven. The more demand there is for services the higher claims rise. When the cost of services goes up, so do claims and premiums.

Employer sponsored health plans are a fire breathing dragon that is out of control. Employees who work for "big" companies that pay the bulk of the premium (sometimes approaching 80%) and deliver plans with minimal risk sharing create an entitlement mentality among their workers.

All too often I encounter those who have left the corporate world only to be faced with COBRA premiums in the $400 range for single coverage and $800+ for family. These same individuals were lulled into a false sense of security with $20 weekly deductions from their paycheck and $10 office visit copays.

I have actually had prospective clients tell me they cant afford to pay $1000 for COBRA but then reject a plan that is $600 LESS in monthly premium. Their reasoning is, the $40 copay that comes with my $400/month plan is too much to pay to see a doctor . . .

Health insurance is the only product where an ID card in your wallet is treated like a blank check where the owner of the card flashes it anytime they want with the expectation that everything will be paid.

Your car insurance doesn't work like that. Neither does your homeowners coverage.

When insureds take a pro-active approach to health care premiums will come down.

Whoa, sounds like you have stock in Blue Cross. I am self employed and have paid my Blue Cross premiums for close to 10 years. Other than a dr appt here and there, my knee is the FIRST major claim I've ever made. Yet my premiums have increased a couple of times EVERY YEAR. I now pay almost $900/mo for coverage. Have to meet 2 $500 deductibles before insurance even kicks in. Then it's we'll pick and choose what and how much is covered and let you know when we send out the claims statement. It's pretty much a crap shoot as to what you'll owe when you go to the dr. I understand I basically pay for the insurance to get the negotiated reduced rates Blue Cross contracts with the doctors for.

It's not easy getting an answer from Blue Cross when you call and ask what will be covered. Example, my MRI. I called the MRI center and asked what the charges were for an MRI of the knee. They tell me $1300. I then call Blue Cross and ask them what will be covered. First, are they in network. Yes. Okay, then we'll cover 70% of the negotiated rate and you'll be responsible for the remaining 30% (if you've met your deductible). Okay, I ask, what is the negotiated rate so I can figure out if I can afford procedure. Can't tell you that until we get the bill. Waste of time.

Oh by the way, I have NEVER seen premiums come down. Your claim that a pro active approach will lower premiums is almost laughable. If I ran my business in the same manner as insurance companies, I would soon be out of business. Imagine my hourly rate at $65/hr in January. Now because the cost of metal has gone up, I'm gonna have to charge you $75/hr in April. Oops, gas prices just went up. My hourly rate is now $85/hr in August. Oh my, that darn Workers Comp bill. Call me in December and I'm gonna charge you $100/hr. Oh, gas prices are back down, I'm still gonna charge you $100/hr because I can get away with it.

However the scare tactics used in insurance commercials keep them in the money. Who would want to risk being responsible for huge medical bills in the case of a catastrophic injury/illness. Not me. So they get my $10,000/yr just in case. Health care costs and insurance premiums are out of control. It's not an easy area to navigate for the uninitiated. I'd rather cut off my right hand than shop for insurance again for my employees. Sorry for ranting but the fact that you place the problem strictly on those who actually use the insurance they pay for is ludicrous to me.
 

somarco

Member
sounds like you have stock in Blue Cross

No, I dont. If it were up to me none of my clients would have Blue . . . but too many think they are "da bomb" so I sell it only because if I dont offer it they will buy it somewhere else. Many could qualify for better coverage but dont want to have anything in their wallet other than a Blue ID card.

my premiums have increased a couple of times EVERY YEAR

Have you noticed the price of gas lately? I drove by a station a few days ago and it was $2.09. Then a few hours later it was $2.14.

Premiums go up whether you use the plan or not. Gas goes up whether you buy it or not. So what is your point?

I now pay almost $900/mo for coverage. Have to meet 2 $500 deductibles before insurance even kicks in

There is your problem. Your deductible is way too low. No wonder you are getting hammered (more so than the usual annual 30%+ increase you can expect from Blue).

It's pretty much a crap shoot as to what you'll owe

Thats because you dont understand your plan. Sure, some things are covered in full, some are not, but most of them are spelled out in your policy.

They are in mine.

I called the MRI center and asked what the charges were for an MRI of the knee. They tell me $1300. I then call Blue Cross and ask them what will be covered. First, are they in network

Consider yourself fortunate. Most outpatient centers do not participate in any network. You got a break.

NEVER seen premiums come down

Gee, thats because claims dont come down. They go up every year.

You do realize carriers are just a conduit, right?

If I ran my business in the same manner as insurance companies

No, I guess you dont.

Sorry for ranting but the fact that you place the problem strictly on those who actually use the insurance they pay for is ludicrous to me.

I'm glad we had this talk. Come back again some time.
 

lkc15507

Member
First of all, I don’t expect anyone to agree with my viewpoints. I did and still do agree that drz is and will be ultimately responsible for this bill. What I am suggesting is that an appeal to the payer is not the only avenue that could possibly be pursued. I do not interpret drz’s original post to state that DME in general is excluded from his health plan. I only interpret that this particular piece of equipment was excluded. Next, I don’t care why the DME was excluded from the plan. For practical purposes, knowing the type of equipment drz described, there was a much less costly alternative that was likely the Standard of Care treatment. Once again, I am pointing out the ethical (perhaps I didn’t make that clear in my first post) responsibility that health care providers have to be patient advocates, which would include checking coverage if there is any doubt. I am suggesting that drz could research the incident and use that ethical obligation as a tool to potentially convince the provider/s to negotiate the bill. Health care providers are not ignorant of reimbursements for services. Health care providers are not ignorant of cost effective treatments and Standards of Care. Depending on the value one places on $450.00, what I am suggesting is that drz can do is to do his homework and find out how and why he was stuck with this device. Determine if the physician specifically ordered a motorized device or something simpler. If so, ask him why he chose that as opposed to an ice pack. If not, find out who took it upon themselves to provide the more expensive equipment or if was perhaps an ordering mistake. Having spent numerous years on the provider and payer sides, those are both very real possibilities. I would also suggest that drz educate himself about the specific device that was used prior to undertaking any discussion with the providers. The appeal to the payer failed as I expect it would regardless of the reason for the denial, but that does not mean that drz has to throw up his hands and say, “ok I’ll pay the bill” without exhausting every possibility to save money. Even if he did “take delivery of the product” (like it’s a UPS package, give me a break), none of that changes the fact that there was likely a less costly alternative which the provider would know about. I for one would ask the provider/s be accountable for the choice and explain themselves. It may not do one bit of good but providers negotiate disputed bills all the time. Squeaky wheels often do get greased. When does “ultimate responsibility” begin? When someone tells me it should or after I’ve exhausted every possibility I can think of? I know the answer for me and my patients. This isn’t a theory, I use crap just like what has been discussed to negotiate these kinds of disputes on behalf of my clients all the time. Sometimes successfully, sometimes not, but at least I try instead of throwing my hands up and telling my client, “Too bad, it’s your ultimate responsibility” without even exploring their concerns.

One actual example I can give is of a patient with multiple myeloma hospitalized for weeks following a bone marrow transplant. She developed severe spinal pain from bone lesions. The doc recommends a vertebroplasy. Should the patient in that situation think to ask “is that an experimental procedure?” Ethically, I don’t think so. As a matter of fact, she should have (since the patient is always responsible. Why let little things like extreme pain, exhaustion, fear, depression, and a terminal diagnosis interfere with your thought processes). Did the doctor know it was an experimental procedure? You bet. Did the doctor know an experimental procedure is likely to be denied coverage? You bet. Did he inform the patient that the procedure is considered experimental? No. (Hummm, “informed consent”.) Should he morally and ethically have checked coverage? You bet. Did he? No. Should the UMD of the facility have checked, morally and ethically? You bet. Were they required to? No. Was the procedure paid for? No. Was the patient responsible for the payment? Yes. Will you find vertebroplasty listed specifically in a plan doc? Not likely. Were there Standard of Care alternatives? Absolutely. The adverse determination was appealed and denied. It was secondarily appealed and denied. It was sent to independent physician review and the denial was upheld because all current medical literature at the time did not support the procedure as a Standard of Care. Do doctors and facilities know what the Standards of Care are? You bet. Do patients? No. Providers have a moral and ethical responsibility to their patients to provide Standards of Care and be patient advocates in all areas, including costs. The providers in the above scenario expected the procedure to be undetectable in a catastrophic claim of over $600,000.00. They were wrong and the patient almost paid. Fortunately for this patient, after all the appeals were done we were successful at having the facility forgive the charges—considerably more than $450.00. We didn't have to, we could have let her take ultimate responsibility by paying the bill. This patient was ultimately responsible yet she never paid a dime for the experimental procedure. She took responsibility, exhausted her appeals process, and enlisted the aid of someone who could help her. I have seen reduction or forgiveness of patient responsibility debts for everything from experimental services, Usual Customary Reasonable charges, timely filing issues and various other services. I refuse to let my clients incur these charges if I can help it simply because the provider has no legal or even contractual obligation to check coverage and / or does not provide the patient enough information to make an educated decision.
 

somarco

Member
lkc -

None of us, including apparently DRZ, have read his policy . . . so anything we do is pure speculation. We can play guessing games all day but my Magic 8 Ball is broken now and I can't find my Ouija board so I am just going to quit playing 20 questions on this topic.

This thread reminds me of another from a few months back on another forum. The original poster was complaining about charges for a medivac airlift from the scene of his accident to the hospital. His "15 minute flight" was over $7k and only $400 or so was paid by his carrier.

HE claimed he was not responsible for the bill since HE was unconscious at the time and unable to AUTHORIZE such an "extreme" mode of transportation.

I submit he was probably unconscious for most of his life . . .

Personally, I will not waiver from driving home the fact the insured is ultimately responsible for knowing what their contract pays and what they dont.

Guess we will just have to disagree on this issue.

Have a nice day!
 
somarco said:
I found a site with very good information, including a post addressing CPM devices. Go to http://medicalinsuranceguru.blogspot.com/ and look for the post on Hidden Providers, the invisible kick in the wallet.

Thanks, Bob. I found that site yesterday. You sound like you know a bit, so if I ever move to Atlanta, I'll look ya up for my insurance needs.

I'm done. Y'all have a good day and good luck to all.
 

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