What is a "business relationship" Fax law question

[robfo0]

What is the name of your state? California

Hello,

My question is regarding wording of the 1991 Telephone Consumer Protection Act. In it, it states having a prior "business relationship" exempts you from the no-fax law. What exactly is a "business relationship"?

Here is my situation: Our company is being asked to pay fees by the attorney of a company we sent some faxes to. They are stating the above said law as reason to collect, or face further action. The problem is, we don't think these faxes were unsolicited. One of our marking reps met with a member of this other company at a Home Improvement show. He offered our servcies (financing for home improvements) to this company, and received a business card, which included their fax number. So, thinking this was the begining of a "business relationship", we faxed some of our advertisements (only 1-2 pages at a time). We informed their attorney that we had met with the company, and it was not unsolicited, but the attorney is still insisting we are in violation and is demanding to be paid or face further action. He says that we need explicit written permission to fax (I though this was a future opt-in law not yet in effect?).

Are we in violation of federal law? or would our previous contact with this company meet the definition of "business relationship" therefore making the faxes not unsolicited?

Help! thanks

 

[JETX]

"Are we in violation of federal law?"
*** Sounds like it to me.

"or would our previous contact with this company meet the definition of "business relationship" therefore making the faxes not unsolicited?"
*** Your having someones card does NOT establish a 'business relationship'. No more than your posting on this forum creates and attorney/client relationship.

 

[robfo0]

So we can go sue crazy over the dozens of faxes we receive from companies we know, but don't necessarily do business with? Doesn't sound right to me.

And if this is the case, what IS a business relationship? When does such a relationship start? How do you know when it is ok to fax (besides the obvious written permission)?

 

[JETX]

The FCC defines an "existing business relationship" as:
"A prior or existing relationship formed by a voluntary two-way communication between a person or entity and a residential subscriber with or without an exchange of consideration, on the basis of the subscriber's purchase or transaction with the entity within the eighteen (18) months immediately preceding the date of the telephone call or on the basis of the subscriber's inquiry or application regarding products or services offered by the entity within the three (3) months immediately preceding the date of the call, which relationship has not been previously terminated by either party."

I also refer you to:
http://www.americanbusinessmedia.com/government/pdfs/fax.PDF
http://www.the-dma.org/cgi/dispissue?article=47
http://www.kimberlycredit.com/faxes.htm
http://www.stopjunkcalls.com/junkfax.htm
http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/consumerfacts/unwantedfaxes.html

 

[robfo0]

so, by this definition...our compaines both carried out "voluntary two-way communication", in which we discussed our "services offered". They did not turn us down, but instead offered a card with contact information. Under your own definition, I do not see how this is NOT a business relationship. Am I wrong?

 

[mykoleary]

I do not see how this is NOT a business relationship. Am I wrong? [/B]

It is not, and yes you are. Try reading some of the links provided by JETX.

 

[robfo0]

I did read all the links that JETX posted, but I am still at a loss as to what exactly a "busniess relationship" is. According to the definitions by the FCC, it would seem a conversation about possible exchange of services would constitute a relationship, but you guys are saying it is not. Why is it not?

Thanks for the help.

 

[oberauerdorf]

on the basis of the subscriber's purchase or transaction with the entity

Pretty straightforward to me. You simply "talked" about starting a relationship. You did not actually consumate the relationship in accordance with the FCC rules regarding "Existing Business Relationship" and therefore, you can be held liable.

 

[JETX]

I agree with Hex and myk..... and simply refuse to get drawn into a what-if continuing saga.

Simply, we have given you the 'official' definition as provided by the FCC. If you feel it doesn't apply to you, then certainly go ahead and FAX them (or deny liability). I would presume that if the other party doesn't agree with your interpretation, they will take the appropriate action against you.

 

[robfo0]

JETX, I'm not trying to draw anyone in with a what-if situation. This is something that is actually happening, and I'm trying to get an accurate description of the law, which is why I came here.

I just don't see any justification in your response that we do not have a relationship. Your reasoning seems to be becase you said so. Using the FCC definition that you supplied, I am trying to determine if we really are in violation. I assure you, our company doesn't just go out faxing anyone. We go to great lengths to comply with the law. I'm just trying to get a concrete answer instead of a "thats the way it is".

oberauerdorf: Yes I agree, if you look at that part of the definition that you quoted, our talking would not be a business relationship, but look at the whole definition. My situation, I think, fits into the second part:

... or on the basis of the subscriber's inquiry or application regarding products or services offered by the entity ...

They didn't initiate the inquiry, we did when we approached their representative, but they did reciprocate by giving us their business card. Given the limited specifications of the definition, I would still say the situation clearly falls into the parameters of a "business relationship".

I'm not looking to pick an argument with anyone, I'm just trying to understand why my view on the law is not valid given the definition.

 

[JETX]

"I just don't see any justification in your response that we do not have a relationship."
*** Okay. Then continue as you have. You see, I have 'no dog in this hunt'. I KNOW what the law says and have told you. You can believe it or not, take action or not, or ignore my comments or not.

All I can tell you is.... if you do proceed, I would not be surprised if you get hit with a request for 'damages' as allowed by US Code. And if you don't agree, you will also as likely get served with a notice of a lawsuit. Then, you can argue your 'interpretation' with the court..... which is the ONLY place that matters anyway.