visitation start times

[CJane]

It's dad's responsibility as a RESPONSIBLE parent that cares about the well being of his child to remember these things.

This is a parenting style issue.

If my kids forget something, they go without. It was 22* here on Monday and my 6 year old 'forgot' to put her coat on before she went out to the car. She went to school w/no coat and her teacher made her stay in from recess since she wasn't dressed appropriately for the weather. But... not my problem. She's a smart kid and she didn't forget her coat today.

My 10 year old 'forgets' homework occasionally - and takes the hit on her grades because I'm not going to make it all better for her.

A RESPONSIBLE parent (IMO) is one who teaches their child that there are consequences for their actions. And when they forget something at their dad's house, even though we're only a few miles apart and he's only 4 miles from their school - it stays there until they visit him again because I'm NOT going to retrieve it for them. And it doesn't matter what it is.

 

[texgirl]

This is a parenting style issue.

Sorry, but unfortunately parenting style ends where a court order begins. My order states that I have to provide appropriate clothing for my daughter's visits. I tell her to pack, but then I check to make sure she has in fact got enough socks, underwear, etc. Ex is required to make sure stuff gets sent home. So I expect him to do what I've done, double check that she has her coat, her cell phone, etc.

 

[CJane]

Sorry, but unfortunately parenting style ends where a court order begins. My order states that I have to provide appropriate clothing for my daughter's visits. I tell her to pack, but then I check to make sure she has in fact got enough socks, underwear, etc. Ex is required to make sure stuff gets sent home. So I expect him to do what I've done, double check that she has her coat, her cell phone, etc.

Ok, but if your hope is that by the child forgetting the coat ONE TIME is going to make up for the fact that your current order is nearly impossible for you to comply with, it's not gonna fly.

Dad could FedEx the coat. You could pick up a cheap coat at a thrift store that she can wear to TX and keep her good coat at home so you have a spare - there are a billion ways around it even being an issue... and the court isn't going to look too kindly on something so petty as "He's supposed to double check and didn't!" being brought before them.

Not everything we have written into our orders is going to be enforceable on their own. Now, if dad consistently refused to send ANY items home with the child, or something along those lines, that would be different. But occasionally forgetting things isn't a hill worth dying on.

 

[Ohiogal]

I am going to have to disagree with you on this one. My son is 8 and had flown as an unaccompanied minor for a few years now. He'd leave everything behind if he weren't reminded! He wears glasses, and will forget to put them on in the morning if not reminded, so at 6am when he's catching his flight, it's very doubtful that he will remember! Also, if he had it his way he'd never wear a coat, let alone remember to take it somewhere!

It's dad's responsibility as a RESPONSIBLE parent that cares about the well being of his child to remember these things. If everything were left to kids to remember, we'd be ina whole different world!

Disagree all you want but legally I am correct.

 

[Ohiogal]

Well, the issue is a legal one, no? The order says he's responsible to make sure things get back. Certainly that can take the form of him as a parent reminding our daughter to double check that she's got everything.

The problem is legally if dad is not purposely forgetting to send things back then a court is not going to do much. They will also expect the child to be reasonably responsible.

 

[Ohiogal]

This is a parenting style issue.

Sorry, but unfortunately parenting style ends where a court order begins. My order states that I have to provide appropriate clothing for my daughter's visits. I tell her to pack, but then I check to make sure she has in fact got enough socks, underwear, etc. Ex is required to make sure stuff gets sent home. So I expect him to do what I've done, double check that she has her coat, her cell phone, etc.

Do you write her name on each piece of clothing so that dad makes sure to send home the "proper" socks and underwear? You can expect him to do what you have done but it is not going to be legally required that each parent parents the same.

 

[CJane]

The problem is legally if dad is not purposely forgetting to send things back then a court is not going to do much. They will also expect the child to be reasonably responsible.

Yup. And telling the daughter to 'double check' isn't likely to be all that effective anyway. I ask my kids all the time "Did you brush your teeth?" "Do you have your back pack?" "Did you feed/water the dog?" "Did you unload the dishwasher?" "Do you have everything you need for camping?" and the answer is almost always "Yeah."

I'm betting, if Dad said "Do you have everything?" Daughter would/did say "Yeah." and would leave something behind anyway because that's what people do.

Gawd, I visit my mom once a month... and at 33 I still almost always leave SOMETHING behind. I don't blame my mom for my stupidity.

 

[texgirl]

I insisted he fedex the expensive down L.L. Bean coat and he did. Not returning stuff was a big problem in the past. That is why this requirement is in the order. I am not saying I plan to file contempt on this kind of stuff. My point, rather, was the irony of insisting on absolute compliance with the orders, no matter what the circumstances, when you yourself are not complaint.

 

[CJane]

Do you write her name on each piece of clothing so that dad makes sure to send home the "proper" socks and underwear? You can expect him to do what you have done but it is not going to be legally required that each parent parents the same.

Grrr. Quotes are messed up. I thought you were responding to me, and I knew I hadn't said that.

But yes, I write 'mom' inside each item of clothing so that they know it belongs at my house. It even works and gets the stuff back to me about 2% of the time.

 

[CJane]

I insisted he fedex the expensive down L.L. Bean coat and he did. Not returning stuff was a big problem in the past. That is why this requirement is in the order. I am not saying I plan to file contempt on this kind of stuff. My point, rather, was the irony of insisting on absolute compliance with the orders, no matter what the circumstances, when you yourself are not complaint.

He did comply. He fed-exed the coat, so it was 'returned'.

And no-one cares if it was an 'expensive down ll bean coat' or a 'cheap fiberfill walmart coat'.

 

[texgirl]

You asked "do you write her name on each piece of clothing so that dad makes sure to send home the "proper" socks and underwear? You can expect him to do what you have done but it is not going to be legally required that each parent parents the same"

No, but there is only one 11 year old girl who wears size 12 in that household. Stepsis is 16, so this is not a case of clothes getting mixed up. This is a big deal to me. My ex pays little support and that is based on an imputed income because the judge declared him to be "purposefully underemployed." I pay for everything, private school tuition, piano and violin lessons, afterschool care. And he refuses to pay his half of her glasses and dental check ups. Well, he can damn well make sure her clothes (the ones I pay for) get sent home.

 

[texgirl]

You said, "The problem is legally if dad is not purposely forgetting to send things back then a court is not going to do much. They will also expect the child to be reasonably responsible."

How do you know decide whether its purposeful or not? And this is a pattern. That is why this provision is in the order.

 

[CJane]

How do you know decide whether its purposeful or not? And this is a pattern. That is why this provision is in the order.

Purposeful, when you take into account reasonable responsibility wrt the child, is going to be along the lines of "No, you can't take that back to your mom's. Leave it here." Or refusing to return something that was accidentally left behind when it would be reasonable to assume it COULD be returned (ie: refusing to return the coat).

AND, it's going to have to be a NEW PATTERN. The order was already changed to accomodate this, so dad started with a clean slate, so to speak. If a new pattern of KNOWINGLY and PURPOSEFULLY not returning items is developing, then it needs to be addressed again. But if he's making an effort to return items that are occasionally left behind, or if they're not 'vital' items that your daughter can't live w/out for another month until she visits again (like socks and underwear) then it really isn't going to matter to anyone but you.

 

[texgirl]

I am not talking about forgetting the occassional pair of socks. I am talking about things like her winter coat and her cell phone, costly items that are essential to our daily life here. And it would be one thing if he would say, ok, I'll get it in the mail right away, but there is always endless bickering about how it should be sent and who should pay.

At one point, I got so fed up with the clothing issue. I went to a thrift store and purchases used but ok clothes sufficient for a week and told him just keep them there. I thought it would save time checking a bag and we wouldn't have to squabble about this kind of petty stuff. Guess what? Ex refused to let her keep the clothes there. He said the order didn't require him to keep stuff for her.

More craziness--at Christmas time, ex requested I send nice clothes to go to church. Fair enough. I sent her "Christmas dress." Guess what? She arrives home on the 26th without it. I had holiday plans too that required her to be dressed up. I did him a favor by doing more than I had to. Is it too much to expect similar courtesy?

My point is, this isn't about "parenting styles." It is about ex's desire for conflict.

 

[CJane]

I am not talking about forgetting the occassional pair of socks. I am talking about things like her winter coat and her cell phone, costly items that are essential to our daily life here.

If they're essential to daily life w/YOU then keep them w/YOU. Don't send her cell phone. She doesn't need it for a weekend visit w/her father. And get her a cheap coat to wear down there.

YES he's ordered to return stuff, but 'reasonable accomodations' must be made. My kids have 2 complete wardrobes at each house so we don't have these issues very often. They have 2 coats, a pair of tennis shoes at Dad's house and a pair at my house. Winter boots at Dad's house and winter boots at my house. Dressy clothes at Dad's house and dressy clothes at mine. Breeches/boots/helmets/saddles/bridles/etc at my house and the same at Dad's. Soccer equipment at my house and equipment at Dad's house.

And it would be one thing if he would say, ok, I'll get it in the mail right away, but there is always endless bickering about how it should be sent and who should pay.

As long as it's sent w/in a reasonable timeframe, this is irrelevant.

e said the order didn't require him to keep stuff for her.

It doesn't. In fact, it REQUIRES that he NOT keep stuff for her. But there's no reason you can't have a 'Bag of stuff that goes to dad's' and send the same stuff every month. I'm thinking YOU aren't doing much to make this easier on anyone.

More craziness--at Christmas time, ex requested I send nice clothes to go to church. Fair enough. I sent her "Christmas dress." Guess what? She arrives home on the 26th without it. I had holiday plans too that required her to be dressed up. I did him a favor by doing more than I had to. Is it too much to expect similar courtesy?

Apparently, yes it is. You KNOW he's going to be a jerk about some stuff. I find it hard to believe that your child only had ONE dressy outfit.

My point is, this isn't about "parenting styles." It is about ex's desire for conflict.[/QUOTE]